Thread

100%, I'm just reversing the claim that stupid people make and using their own words. I also have a very ranty episode about this topic from probably like 5 years ago 🤣

I know haha it’s sooo annoying. People like Peter Schiff really cause more harm with these retarded arguments.

I love to talk about value. It is simultaneously the most used and misunderstood thing I know. I like to start with pointing out how fast value can change. Right now a breath of air is not worth much to most. Get stuck underwater, a few cm is enough..., and the value for that same breath of air goes within 20-40 seconds for most from almost no value to a lot. To increase in value a few 10 seconds later to "most they possess". The second exercise I take on is explaining how a free trade works (a trade not being forced upon either participating). Most think a free trade is based on both side agreeing on a fair value and next close the deal. To me trying to explain a free trade only takes place if both parties DISAGREE on the value and that to be the only reason for a successful free trade. If one of the parties think they don't gain on that trade why would that partie agree to that free trade. It is the difference in perceived value both parties see, and makes both think they do a good deal or gain, that makes the free deal possible. So value is always relative, can vary a lot even in short time, and is just a human concept. Who ever combined or combines "intrinsic" and "value" usually can't explain either properly..... Next I always try to point out that everything can, and a lot has been, successfully used as money. Glass beats, seashells, salt, cigarettes, Gold/Silver, pieces of paper with death people on it some can print for free 🤮 If that hurdle is taken the last step to be taken is find properties the best Money should have. Still not everyone will agree on the outcome 😇 But most can make the step Fiat is actually insane. To next agree Gold did/does a good job. To start to open up to #Bitcoin being way better than Gold in modern interconnected fast moving world. The previous mentioned steps usually do take some time to settle and truly set in. And most have some hurdles that need more explanation and discussion.

Good post. Not that you asked me but here is my quick take for the sake of having actual conversations here on #nostr. 1. Agree that value is subjective (mises idea). This is a principle that most miss, but you nailed it. 2. I disagree (I think?) on your idea of trade. Free trade - by definition- would only happen it benifits both parties (at least from each parties perspective.) Therefore there can't really be a mismatch. Thoughts?

What do you mean with mismatch ? I think it is needed for a free trade that both parties don't agree on perceived value, while most people think the basis for a free trade is agreement. The agreement from both parties is to do the deal. But the basis of that free deal is both disagreeing on perceived value.

Oh, I see what you mean. 🫡

I think not having intrinsic value is one of the things that makes it the best money.

Humility is a trait that leads to great things. Good for you! Wish I could say the same for other goldbugs I’ve known.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Value is inherently subjective and relative to individual preferences, not intrinsic.

so everything you listed only has value because others decide to want it and they have relative scarcity? everyone wants air, but it's also everywhere. maybe in space fresh air that does not smell like years of piss and farts will have a hefty price.

No, I’m kinda saying the opposite. Eg air has intrinsic value because of its properties, scarce or not, wanted or not.

you can't separate value from how hard something is to acquire. that makes no sense. and yes it can be situational. a man dying of thirst might trade a gold bar for a bottle of water. but generally speaking that quantity of water has almost no value. the stuff is everywhere on the planet in mind breaking quantities.

Water is abundant and valuable. That doesn’t make things that are scarce valuable by default. I just farted. It was an incredibly scarce fart, one of a kind in fact. It would be incredibly hard to capture. Does that make it valuable?

"Water is abundant and valuable." not really. only situationally. scarcity is a necessary component to value. "so everything you listed only has value because others decide to want it and they have relative scarcity?" you are trying to pick that apart in a retarded way. people must want/need it and it must be scarce. then it will acquire value. this is true for everything.

Ohh water is only ‘situationally’ valuable. Like in basically every situation where there is life you mean? Other than that sure, useless

It’s not that hard to capture a fart, you just need to make the effort.

I’ve never really given it much thought

You need to consider it more, your argument depends on it.

Not really. Even if farts were easy to capture, any particular fart would still be scarce.

you would be able to sell me gold or bitcoin if i find the price right. try selling me water, lol! even if potable water is more scarce than otherwise it still has no value to speak of. no liquid market on a personal level.

I can’t be bothered trying to explain it anymore so maybe ai can: What he’s missing is the difference between market price/liquidity and intrinsic or situational value. He’s conflating “value” with “tradable commodity on a market.” A few points: 1. Value isn’t only economic. Water has enormous value in survival terms, even if there’s no one to sell it to you personally. If you’re stranded without water, its worth is infinite relative to your life; the market is irrelevant. Bitcoin and gold may have a price, but that price means nothing if they can’t sustain you physically or psychologically in the moment. 2. Liquidity ≠ inherent value. Just because something is hard to trade or lacks a market doesn’t make it valueless. Scarcity in a market context doesn’t generate intrinsic worth; it just allows pricing to happen. 3. Situational vs absolute value. He’s dismissing water because he’s imagining a situation where he can’t sell it. But value is highly context-dependent — to a thirsty human, water’s value is immediate and undeniable, regardless of markets. Scarcity alone does not create value; need does. 4. Human perception and utility matter. Value is tied to utility and desire, not just scarcity. Water’s utility is life-sustaining; Bitcoin’s is trust, speculation, or medium of exchange. He’s blind to the distinction between “can I sell this” and “can I survive without it.” In short: he’s thinking like a trader, not a human being. Scarcity alone doesn’t produce value; utility, desire, and consequences do.

how is that any different from what i said?

"so everything you listed only has value because others decide to want it and they have relative scarcity?" is not contradicted by "Value is tied to utility and desire, not just scarcity." also "Liquidity ≠ inherent value" nobody claimed that. my actual claim was without scarcity, there is no value to speak of. it's true that price is a proxy for value. it's also true that values is subjective and situational.

Because you’re saying you need scarcity to have value and it’s saying you don’t, dipshit

no. you just need to learn to read.

Dipshit isn’t a language I’m going to learn

I’ve reread this thread and maybe I have misunderstood what you’re saying. The original poster was saying that bitcoin has value because it has intrinsic value in that it serves as a means of communication of value. Maybe you can say whether you agree with that or not.

i think "intrinsic value" is kinda bs. aside from subjectivity, in aggregate, we hold things valuable that are useful and not abundant. it really boils down to supply and demand. i don't disagree with the idea that bitcoin is a network good tho. it offers more utility the more people adopt it, however this is logarithmic.

I think I see what you’re trying to do now. You’re basically saying that ‘intrinsic’ value is meaningless, and if something is scarce and in demand, it will have value. If it is truly scarce and lots of people want it, it will be really valuable, maybe infinitely so. Ok, so let’s say you’re correct. And let’s apply this to bitcoin. It’s scarce (21m) and lots of people want it. So it must always go up. And when people have it they’ll continue to want it. Why? Because other people want it, who will pay for it, because they want it. So the people who have it just have to convince others to want what they have, but not sell what they have, which will work because others want it.. Can you see the circular logic of this?

for the record, i don't think it ill always go up. i don't think it's valuation works as it should have anymore. but i do think that bitcoin is not like physical stuff. for example i would not want 1000 barrels of oil delivered to my door, but i would always accept a 1000 btc if someone wants to send it to me. there is no cap on what a single person can conveniently hold. it's very special in that sense.

No it isn’t. Anyone can mint a crypto and hold an infinite amount

sure. bitcoin was the first such asset. and still the most relevant. but that's coming to an end because people went full retard and forgot why bitcoin was made in the first place.

also we already discussed that there is no value in stuff that is in infinite supply. you can make up your own bullshit, but you can't just conjure more bitcoin into existence and can't just create an advantage to yourself by printing your own money. that's why it was a schelling point. at least that was true before the paper bitcoin era. once people start to hold "bitcoin" on their bank accounts (few years tops) the banks will just make those numbers up like they did with everything. KYC/AML regulation will make sure you can only send from walled garden to walled garden which will quickly devolve into cheaper "off-chain" offerings. then bitcoin scarcity becomes a joke. the writing is on the wall. it already failed to appreciate in real terms (or against gold) for an entire cycle. the simple reason is that people are not buying bitcoin anymore, they are buying paper and weird ponzinomic affinity scams.

Exactly. It had some value as peer to peer cash while the fees stayed low (and before other crypto did it better, eg bitcoin cash). But after that, well people didn’t want to say, well we have all this hash power supporting an inferior exchange of value, so maybe we can sell it as a store of value. But a store of what value? Its only value was as an exchange, so if you remove that, it has none. Or rather it has the value people have been convinced to believe it has. And clearly humans are pretty susceptible to extraordinary claims without any actual evidence. So the narrative works for ages. But not forever.

i think #bitcoin would still be fine with the speculation / shared hallucination about it's value. if it could hang on to it's supply cap. it would protect your purchasing power against real inflation, and it would provide an opt-out from the consequences of fiscal and monetary policy. but bitcoin in a high -trust environment (white markets) loses all of it's cherished properties. including the scarcity! bitcoin only makes sense as a low-trust (supra-legal) system. in the absence of large, liquid, established gray or black markets and circular economies that insist on final settlement on-chain and provide independent price discovery, at bifurcation the massive power advantage goes to the regulators and their enforcers, the financial institutions.