Thread
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
Replies (69)
Great note Fren thanks for enlightening all of us
We literally need a constitutional amendment against that shiy. It' legalized theft.
as opposed to asking the government to steal all different kinds of coins?
I really don't see how a stockpile of stolen cryptos is *that* different than a stockpile of stolen Bitcoin
Very informative.
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
Finally, good content and a check on reality among a wall of “GM”s and “stack sats!!… pura vida!!”s. Thank you.
NOSTR WON'T REACH ITS FULL POTENTIAL UNTIL IT'S USED TO COORDINATE A REVOLUTION SOMEWHERE. TWITTER AND FACEBOOK TOOK DOWN HOSNI MUBARAK - WE CAN DO SO MUCH BETTER WITH CURRENT TOOLS.
we will walk away silently we will move our business our houses our family quietly onto a scarce standard
no amount of force can stop such a passive let down we see the long term we are ready
SOME PEOPLE WILL USE BITCOIN'S PURCHASING POWER AND PERMISSIONLESS COMMS TO DO EXCEPTIONALLY VIOLENT THINGS. IT'S SIMPLY HUMAN NATURE, REGARDLESS OF LONG TERM INCENTIVES. NO AMOUNT OF OPTING OUT WILL STOP THIS PHENOMEN OR OFFER SUFFICIENT PROTECTION TO ENSURE SURVIVAL. NAVEL GAZING OVER IDEALS FOR A REMADE SOCIETY IS NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT TO REVIVE OR REVISE A SOCIAL CONTRACT - SOMETIMES THE TREE OF LIBERTY NEEDS REFRESHED TOO.
Respectfully the only weak bitch I see is the one holding a cheap glass of wine
Civil asset forfeiture blah blah blah cute essay. You say civil asset forfeiture guess what I say self custody.
The shitcoin reserves gives more undeserved legitimacy to shitcoins and proves that the bulk of trumps political donations from the “crypto” space came from shitcoin creators CEOs and influencers
It’s all good tho Bitcoin will win in the end. So I could care less about the SBR. It’s just cringey that’s all
I look forward to you telling that to the agents that show up to your house with guns cutie pie
The 2nd Amendment and Self Custody sweetheart tell them to come let’s shoot it out
Easy to say, hard to do.
If I’m willing to die for anything it’s my
Family and life savings lol I don’t think it’s that hard. If someone tried to break in your house and rob you .. it wouldn’t be hard to defend yourself.
Suppose you succeed in defending yourself. Then what?
Then I continue to life my life and keep
My stack
They kill me in a shootout guess what they still don’t have my corn
THIS IS A GOOD TAKE. AT THE END OF THE DAY, TEENAGERS WITH MUSKETS CREATED THIS COUNTRY OVER MUCH LESSER GRIEVANCES AND SOME WILL DO IT AGAIN IF THEY MUST.
Thank you sir
What if they dont want your coin, but just make BTC illegal that way and destroy what they cannot control?
Never trust governments, they are evil and have plans to enslave the people.
Since when did the govt making something illegal ever stop it?
Good point, but adoption will deteriorate and mass adoption will be impossible by this in the forseeable future.
If they crack down adoption, hashrate will plummet and Bitcoin is vulnerable.
The wall st fuck boys are in bed now that attack vector isn’t probable
Your family will lose you. Your other assets will be seized by law enforcement. Your family will have to move. They might be charged and have to pay for legal expenses.
Have you asked them if they are fine with that?
Let’s be real it would never happen no politician wants that on their watch or in the news that bloody shootouts happen with law enforcement all over the United States because they are trying to seize public property it realistically won’t happen
Private property **
The wall street fuck boys belong to BlackRock and Vanguard.
And these two belong to each other.
I understand that civil asset fofeiture is bad, but I don't understand what that has to do with a Bitcoin only reserve versus a shit coin reserve
The reserve is made up of bitcoin the government has seized/will seize
Playbook: Destroy what you can't control
- Legalize a SBR
- Declare most of BTC illegal (transparent Blockchain)
- Try to seize the coins by force, illegalize possession.
Civil asset forfeiture is purely evil. That said, the whole point of bitcoin is P2P and permissionless. They can call my coins guilty all they want, but they can’t actually seize them without my consent.
They could say "Give us the keys or you ll rot in jail." Your choice.
Actually this would indeed affect almost every fucking UTXO, even from exchanges, because the majority of tx could be linked on its way from the coinbase to your wallet to a "crime".
If an exchange by chance ever accepted tainted coins, ALL coinjoins out of that tx will be considered illegal.
This would be a nuke.
Sure. And guess what happens when EVERYBODY is guilty of a crime? It’s nasty and dirty and corrupt and they arrest you just because they want to- which happens already, or it’s unenforceable. In any case, they can’t get cold storage coins without consent. If the goal is protecting my assets, Bitcoin fixes this.
So pretty much every dollar i’ve ever touched could be seized since they likely have been used for crime at some point. Cool
They ll apply a double standard.
Goal is to destroy what they cannot control.
Americans: "We are democratic, nice and soft, while those unelected kings and Lukashenka are dictators!".
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
"Nothing" we can do about it, huh?
OK.
That comment made Robin Hood spin in his grave.
YEAH I CAN THINK OF ANYWHERE FROM 50 TO 308 TO 556 WAYS OF PROTESTING CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE
Very weak right
Exactly it will be bloodshed all over America. What politician wants that on their watch?
Thank you for this reminder.
Okay so civil forteiture is a problem. Worth tackling going forward.
But the outcey at the moment isn't whether there should be a reserve/stockpile or not. The EO has been signed so its a thing, like it or not. My question is, why would a crypto reserve be preferable over a bitcoin only reserve?
In both instances bitcoin is still subject to civil forfeiture. But one scenario is legitimizing shitcoins and scams while the other is recognizing hard money.
If the question is reserve or no reserve, I see your point re: civil forfeiture and thats certainly worth a conversation and education. But the outcry is having chosen crypto over bitcoin.
love it when you take the whip out
I wonder if Ross’s bitcoin will be the first to go into the stockpile?
Excellent and clearly written! More people need to understand this. Civil asset forfeiture as part of U.S. law was a dominant factor in my loss of respect for the entire concept of “rule of law.” All governments have proven they should not be trusted, and some are so bad they should be assisted in their demise.
WHEN OPTING OUT OFFERS INSUFFICIENT PROTECTION, TAKING UP ARMS HAS MANY GOOD HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS. FOR EXAMPLE, CONSIDER HOW ALCOHOLIC TEENAGERS WITH MUSKETS FORMED THE UNITED STATES AND UNLEASHED THE GREATEST PROSPERITY IN HISTORY - AT LEAST UNTIL FIAT RUINED EVERYTHING. HUMAN AGENCY IS STILL AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SURRENDERED THEIR KIN TO THE WOLVES.
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
Um...well. That is crap.
Thank you so much for making me aware of this. I understand it is the same in Australia after some brief research with Victoria being the toughest on it apparently.
Is the real battle against this law and not necessarily a Bitcoin-focused treasury...
Whoever owns 123 Wilmington Drive is about to get the shit doxxed out of them
Really interesting thank you.
Even if obviously seizing Bitcoins could turned out much more complicated than normal assets due to pseudonymity, and it's obvious digitality.
And even if they managed to seize some Bitcoin from regulated entities which comply, it will just decenticivize people using Bitcoin in the US which is a bad trade of,.
Or incentivize them using more Lightning like private way of exchanging UTXO's.
Let's see realizing that requires critical thinking and most Bitcoin people these days are here for number go up and not for the ideals that Bitcoin was originally founded upon and have no logic.
Good take.
Her take doesn’t apply to American cold storage 2nd amendment gun caarrying citizens it means nothing
Cold storage 🥶 🧊 is a bitch. Guess it's tough shit 😎
Couldn't agree more. Many former freedom tech influencers forgot about potential unintended consequences of encouraging the state to pump their bags. I have been ranting about this for a long time. It is clear that many on this thread don't have a clue how brutally the state enforces it's initiatives. "Give us your corn or we overwhelm you with force, then cage you for as long as it takes."
Holy fuck👀
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
The government already stole the coins. They aren't coming back. Stop acting like they will be returned to their rightful owners. The choice is then they either sell them and make money off the coin, or keep them in a reserve. CAF is not going away, and the courts have rules time and time again it is legal in most cases.
Stop acting like there is a 3rd option here. The 'criminals' are not getting it back.
I really don’t get why people want this reserve either. I don’t trust it. Why should we want the government to buy bitcoin with our money instead of buying it ourselves? Or give them incentive to steal it from us?
It’s also just one more thing for the government to decide to do without actually getting a vote or permission from any of its citizens before doing it.
Here’s a question & love to get your take: does a SBR violate the separation of Money and State?
Do they get to confiscate a single UTXO, the whole stack they can find, or only the sats that have been used in criminal activity? I don't even know if the last one is even possible.
Heavy shit Loo. I didn’t appreciate the implications. I’ve been honed in on tax and inflation but this forfeiture thing is fucking frightening in a bitcoin context!
Civil asset forfeiture is straight up unconstitutional in its current form, so essentially hypocritical and yes I can truly say the self proclaimed authorities love this mafia tactic. Using the war on drugs as a major excuse to falsely justify the mass implementation of it.
