Maybe following people is overrated.
It's totally doable to use Nostr by just following relays instead. You can get a very nice and well-curated feed today by just browsing wss://nostr.wine or wss://pyramid.fiatjaf.com -- and this is because basically no one even knows or is aware of this mode of doing things and we don't have the relay infrastructure necessary to enable such flows, so it has a lot to improve.
Maybe we should really only be following at most 50 people each, only the people we want to ensure we will not lose sight of, and people who have been banned or inhabit a different ecosystem (of relays) than the one we frequent the most. Aside from that just following a bunch of relays, either grouped together or in different tabs.
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Really? Just load up a relay? That's basically the equivalent of clicking the old "I feel lucky" on Google. Without a search prompt.
There needs to be *some* kind of filtration function. I agree "follows" aren't great -- this is sort of a Twitter model. Which was originally built by a bunch of people who knew eachother IRL, and only later became the sort of "micro-celebrity" model we have today.
Reddit has always worked better for me because it's content organized by *subject*, not any particular person or set of people.
But the great thing about Nostr is that it can be all of this, but decentralized and with unstoppable monetization.
Also "just follow curated, moderated relays" = Mastodon. Change my mind!
The data doesnβt live on just one relay, and npub doesnβt belong to any relay either, so itβs not the same as Mastodon.
I guess what fiatjaf wants are relays that curate high-quality content, each with their own filtering strategies to provide feeds tailored to different interests.
Outside of npub portability, again, it seems like you're just describing Mastodon. Federation means different instances can indeed share information, and I guess there is technically a means of user migration between instances, even if it isn't frequently used... But in what fiatjaf is describing, you wouldn't be moving your npub at all anyway!
"Just connect to these three or four servers" just seems to defeat the entire purpose of a decentralized social network. And besides that, the issue is that it vastly increased the legal liability on relay operators, who now 100% have to operate as content moderators.
Strictly speaking, there's no such thing as "migrating" an npub, it was never tied to any one place to begin with.
Once an event is signed, it objectively exists. In fact, your events already exist on relays all over the world, even ones you never explicitly published to. (This very reply of yours is already on a relay I run at home.) Thatβs what I see as the biggest difference between nostr and mastodon.
Decentralization isnβt about how many relays you use. You connected to 14 relays, but Iβd guess you donβt have absolute control over any of them. I only use five, but I control two of them. So whoβs more censorship-resistant?
Any service that exposes data publicly carries some legal risk, thatβs a general truth, not specific to this idea. And no oneβs saying every relay needs to moderate content. Public relays and curated relays can coexist.
Or maybe self-signed individual json events are enough. Trying to create a quantum superposition of yes global state + no global state is goofballs, has always been. This is a much better idea.
I would prefer a p2p nostr over a multi-server model
this concept of self-sovereign identity is not common on the internet. it's used with SSH, and a small amount of TLS works from this basis. the DNS roots are sovereign in as far as a small number of individuals have the secret to sign stuff, and this is why it's robust.
the rest of the internet tho. they don't care. in my fiat mine job, we are working with several blockchains and fortunately two of them that we work with the users' signatures are generated locally by the users, albeit with the help of this "web3auth" system which binds access to a secret key to an email address. we are integrating another chain, an ethereium fork sponsored by Sony, and the web3 devs in charge of that yet again chose a non-self-sovereign identity scheme whereby the secret bound to a user's email related identity depends on a smart contract to ... idk even how this is considered secure... but the smart contract signs their events.
i haven't implemented the prescribed API call to that SC to verify the signatures, and as such, an important but minor attack vector on our users is currently open because the server i built isn't validating the signatures. but this is a bad thing. and its a very bad design to shift authentication inwards to the centre of a network system. authority to sign events should be on the edge, this is what "self sovereign identity" means.
the history of hacks on central authentication systems is extensive. why people keep building them is beyond me.
The definition of Nostr is the multi-server model.
Agree. We were trying to think of a term for it for some of our internal stuff, "end of the road authority" is our placeholder, but "authority on the edge" also works. That alone, if well done, is something.
Circling back, many of Nostr's problems come from trying to have global-state features without paying the global-state price and then getting slapped around by the debt collector (network physics).
The clobbering of replaceable events like follow lists is the perfect illustration of this. Network physics is like "Did you pay the price for this little global state you're trying to sneak in here?" and the kind3 event spec is like "umm.. no..." and then it's the baseball bat again.
I don't think there shouldn't be servers, I just think every person should be running one. the community relays should also exist, but relays count should > npub count since every npub has a relay.
those personal relays might act like aggregators for whatever that person is interested in, so the "50 people" you follow at their personal relay gets you content from many more sources.
The penny has dropped.
Following subjects, as well as people. Payment channels. Developers channels. Permitted to censure others, without being booted off the platform. A self help through sharing experiences . A marketplace.
This is the anything, everything platform. All under the umbrella of free speech.
Feasible and its happening.
I fucking love Nostr.
Now that is intriguing!
Interesting idea. It seems to be analogous to real-life tribes/communities, so maybe itβs healthy and natural.
4000 anon followers only inflates ego
π¦TREXβ’οΈ @cloud fodder
Yes comrade. First we commune and then we federate!
@Nice and Kind Vic thoughts feelings blessings considerations comments or concerns?
Only that Kind 3 is deprecated.
Use follow sets instead. The best apps will leverage follow sets like Corny Chat, Coracle, Amethyst, Gossip and Nostrudel.
I want to see more of what Coracle is doing to build custom filter views as well
Jumble handles these links so nicely
I was just going to comment this. Jumble makes it so easy. One of my favorite features on Jumble.
Can confirm, I don't follow anyone
itβs like subreddits. relays are curated content/communities.
But there already is a curated communities NIP
ive been saying this since well before that nip existed
Not the only one. A closed relay is a community. No need to overcomplicate it π€·
I like the intention of better UX but scalability-wise it's similar to the idea that we should all move to the woods. Just doesn't support a billion people on Nostr. For that we need to decouple transport from the social graph and better solve the common neighbor problem that relays currently pose.
I'm all for following fewer people at the same time. Circles or tribes or aspects as they're called in other systems help replicate the closeness of the offline good old days. More people will feel they belong if they converse both up and down the social ladder.
I am against decoupling transport from the social graph. I want to couple it harder.
Now that's a good idea.
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I was a firm believer in this a few months ago, but I've relaxed on it recently because current WoT systems rely so heavily on the follow list. I'm not sure I would want to outsource that source of trust entirely to relays
Interesting
me when fiatjaf doesnβt follow back type shit
yes, when we fragment the internet. A more local internet is definitely a goal.
When are we going to fragment the internet? Is that like that thing in which we all had to jump at the same time to move the earth and prevent global warming?
we need a bigger axe
Officially supported on @YakiHonne


This is good, now we just need a way to quickly browse relay feeds by clicking on them, seeing recommended relay feeds from friends, publishing to a single relay with NIP-70.
π―
I mainly just use a relay list with 3-4 relays i like in jumble, i call it 'global'. dont even use the follow feed.
We'll be adding Nostr to Siftree soon, allowing you to browse a feed of topics across relays. That way it's easier to find the cluster of content you're most interested in.
Will be changing our auth too
There needs to be a new type of interface with relays that can request various feeds from a single relay.
A relay operator may want to have multiple different feeds for different users. I don't think it makes sense to expect much curation when asking a relay for its entire recent database.
Sure, this can be solved by relay software that runs multiple relay fronts behind the scenes, but IMO there needs to be a way to request a list of curated feeds from a relay.
There needs to be some way to differentiate between a firehose feed and a curated feed, with relays being able to provide both in a way thats easier and more discoverable than a separate subdomain for each feed.