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Keep calm and HODL #Bitcoin. Everyone seems to be overreacting to the Samourai arrests, the FBI PSA, and Phoenix leaving the US. Here's my attempt to break it down. Samourai You have to unpack all of the different elements. Could this be a state attack on self-custody and privacy? Maybe. Probably not. There are a few components here that need to be evaluated on their own. 1⃣ Samourai was a self-custodial wallet 2⃣ Samourai was a mixer 3⃣ Samourai was providing normal people with privacy 4⃣ Samourai were knowingly marketing the service to criminals and flaunting that fact Reading the charges, it seems like #4 is pretty cut and dry for this case. Their getting arrested for #4, doesn't automatically mean #1, #2, #3 are under siege as well. If Samourai was a taco stand laundering money and bragging about it, I'm sure they would be taken down too. They may be accused of running a money transmitter now, but that may or may not stick. We'll find out in the trial. All that said, we should always be vigilant to attempts to erode privacy and the ability to self-custody. It just does not seem that this fight is *that* fight. FBI PSA Seems pretty normal that the FBI would advise people to use compliant services, and the entire announcement seems to revolve around potential disruptions due to Samourai being taken down, and potentially others in the future. Given they took action, they have to post some bulletin about it. Remember that when people lose funds or have funds stolen from them, they do go to the FBI for help. From their point of view, the best thing for people to do is use compliant services where they can potentially help. The announcement concludes saying that services that purposely break the law will be investigated - so again we go back to #4 above. This is nothing new, and self-custody is not being criminalized. Phoenix Leaving As @jack said, it's feels completely unnecessary. Phoenix obviously is not a MSB and they are not doing anything illegal. In my view, their exit from the US app stores is a complete overreaction. Keep Calm Could "they" come after wallets, developers, mixers, nodes, LSPs, sidechains, eCash, VPNs, encryption, etc? It's totally possible. But if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about. To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights (@gladstein). It would be very difficult to change the law or stretch it to incriminate these things because it's all just information and software, which is speech. Some will try. But as they are trying, #Bitcoin is becoming more and more mainstream and integral to the world's financial system. #Bitcoin is freedom technology and it will continue on. Go outside this weekend and think about why you're here.

Replies (99)

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It’s not cheap to fight the US government. And if your business is on a shoestring budget, and it’s your livelihood, better to be safe than broke. Wallet of satoshi was a canary in the coal mine. As much as people say phoenix was “self custodial” ACINQ(a larger business) was the sole liquidity provider for the application.
"Phoenix obviously is not a MSB and they are not doing anything illegal." lmao topnotch legal analysis right here
Samson Mow's avatar Samson Mow
Keep calm and HODL #Bitcoin. Everyone seems to be overreacting to the Samourai arrests, the FBI PSA, and Phoenix leaving the US. Here's my attempt to break it down. Samourai You have to unpack all of the different elements. Could this be a state attack on self-custody and privacy? Maybe. Probably not. There are a few components here that need to be evaluated on their own. 1⃣ Samourai was a self-custodial wallet 2⃣ Samourai was a mixer 3⃣ Samourai was providing normal people with privacy 4⃣ Samourai were knowingly marketing the service to criminals and flaunting that fact Reading the charges, it seems like #4 is pretty cut and dry for this case. Their getting arrested for #4, doesn't automatically mean #1, #2, #3 are under siege as well. If Samourai was a taco stand laundering money and bragging about it, I'm sure they would be taken down too. They may be accused of running a money transmitter now, but that may or may not stick. We'll find out in the trial. All that said, we should always be vigilant to attempts to erode privacy and the ability to self-custody. It just does not seem that this fight is *that* fight. FBI PSA Seems pretty normal that the FBI would advise people to use compliant services, and the entire announcement seems to revolve around potential disruptions due to Samourai being taken down, and potentially others in the future. Given they took action, they have to post some bulletin about it. Remember that when people lose funds or have funds stolen from them, they do go to the FBI for help. From their point of view, the best thing for people to do is use compliant services where they can potentially help. The announcement concludes saying that services that purposely break the law will be investigated - so again we go back to #4 above. This is nothing new, and self-custody is not being criminalized. Phoenix Leaving As @jack said, it's feels completely unnecessary. Phoenix obviously is not a MSB and they are not doing anything illegal. In my view, their exit from the US app stores is a complete overreaction. Keep Calm Could "they" come after wallets, developers, mixers, nodes, LSPs, sidechains, eCash, VPNs, encryption, etc? It's totally possible. But if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about. To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights (@gladstein). It would be very difficult to change the law or stretch it to incriminate these things because it's all just information and software, which is speech. Some will try. But as they are trying, #Bitcoin is becoming more and more mainstream and integral to the world's financial system. #Bitcoin is freedom technology and it will continue on. Go outside this weekend and think about why you're here.
View quoted note →
Nice articulation. However, it is too short sighted IMO. There was no injured party and who were the "criminals" there were marketing to? Also, the government did not make these very clear articulations as you are making. They left it vague for a reason. As you said this is your interpretation. Governments do not play fair and pieces of paper do not grant "rights." History shows different.
They hit a mixer and it’s not the first time. Who knows what Phoenix is up to. If Apple had informed them of something other wallet apps would have also received the memo. Even if the app stores fall, what are they going to do make running sparrow or core illegal? The government SELLS and holds Bitcoin.
Much if what you say is reasonable but the concept of “rule of law” must be evaluated in the context of who makes, interprets, and enforces “the law” I’m sure there is “rule of law” in Russia, Iran, and North Korea also. And, “laws” that span thousands of pages unread by the politicians who make them do not inspire confidence.
"But if you are not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about." Law is subjective and it will be twisted to the agenda of those in power. The legal process is part of the punishment, even if one is found not guilty at the end. I may be black pilled on law and politics in general, but I am white pilled on freedom technology. We will win, but it won't be because elites and federal agencies join hands with us or some Court rules in favor of privacy and freedom. The trend of the Court is the opposite of that. Whar gives me hope is focusing on owning my own property and defending it with cryptography, arms, and friends/family. Be a hard target.
While I mostly agree with what's been written, I'll parrot my earlier confusion. How do you get node operators to follow AML? They don't see either customer and merely validate transactions #asknostr
Samson Mow's avatar Samson Mow
Keep calm and HODL #Bitcoin. Everyone seems to be overreacting to the Samourai arrests, the FBI PSA, and Phoenix leaving the US. Here's my attempt to break it down. Samourai You have to unpack all of the different elements. Could this be a state attack on self-custody and privacy? Maybe. Probably not. There are a few components here that need to be evaluated on their own. 1⃣ Samourai was a self-custodial wallet 2⃣ Samourai was a mixer 3⃣ Samourai was providing normal people with privacy 4⃣ Samourai were knowingly marketing the service to criminals and flaunting that fact Reading the charges, it seems like #4 is pretty cut and dry for this case. Their getting arrested for #4, doesn't automatically mean #1, #2, #3 are under siege as well. If Samourai was a taco stand laundering money and bragging about it, I'm sure they would be taken down too. They may be accused of running a money transmitter now, but that may or may not stick. We'll find out in the trial. All that said, we should always be vigilant to attempts to erode privacy and the ability to self-custody. It just does not seem that this fight is *that* fight. FBI PSA Seems pretty normal that the FBI would advise people to use compliant services, and the entire announcement seems to revolve around potential disruptions due to Samourai being taken down, and potentially others in the future. Given they took action, they have to post some bulletin about it. Remember that when people lose funds or have funds stolen from them, they do go to the FBI for help. From their point of view, the best thing for people to do is use compliant services where they can potentially help. The announcement concludes saying that services that purposely break the law will be investigated - so again we go back to #4 above. This is nothing new, and self-custody is not being criminalized. Phoenix Leaving As @jack said, it's feels completely unnecessary. Phoenix obviously is not a MSB and they are not doing anything illegal. In my view, their exit from the US app stores is a complete overreaction. Keep Calm Could "they" come after wallets, developers, mixers, nodes, LSPs, sidechains, eCash, VPNs, encryption, etc? It's totally possible. But if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about. To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights (@gladstein). It would be very difficult to change the law or stretch it to incriminate these things because it's all just information and software, which is speech. Some will try. But as they are trying, #Bitcoin is becoming more and more mainstream and integral to the world's financial system. #Bitcoin is freedom technology and it will continue on. Go outside this weekend and think about why you're here.
View quoted note →
> To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights What use is the bill of rights or the constitution if the Fed can fuck your life before you can contest it.... or if you can't afford to contest it. The fed act first, screw people over and it can take years to win against them - your documents are just that, archaic pieces of paper which are used as political talking points.
I’m here to fight the criminal government that hates me. Your explanations of “law” which we all know don’t exist anymore are sad. But I get it. But I don’t Why are you here? To make money? You’ve made yours. What about those of us who NEED Bitcoin? It’s an honest question.
A voice of reason. #grownostr #freedomtech #naturerules too
Samson Mow's avatar Samson Mow
Keep calm and HODL #Bitcoin. Everyone seems to be overreacting to the Samourai arrests, the FBI PSA, and Phoenix leaving the US. Here's my attempt to break it down. Samourai You have to unpack all of the different elements. Could this be a state attack on self-custody and privacy? Maybe. Probably not. There are a few components here that need to be evaluated on their own. 1⃣ Samourai was a self-custodial wallet 2⃣ Samourai was a mixer 3⃣ Samourai was providing normal people with privacy 4⃣ Samourai were knowingly marketing the service to criminals and flaunting that fact Reading the charges, it seems like #4 is pretty cut and dry for this case. Their getting arrested for #4, doesn't automatically mean #1, #2, #3 are under siege as well. If Samourai was a taco stand laundering money and bragging about it, I'm sure they would be taken down too. They may be accused of running a money transmitter now, but that may or may not stick. We'll find out in the trial. All that said, we should always be vigilant to attempts to erode privacy and the ability to self-custody. It just does not seem that this fight is *that* fight. FBI PSA Seems pretty normal that the FBI would advise people to use compliant services, and the entire announcement seems to revolve around potential disruptions due to Samourai being taken down, and potentially others in the future. Given they took action, they have to post some bulletin about it. Remember that when people lose funds or have funds stolen from them, they do go to the FBI for help. From their point of view, the best thing for people to do is use compliant services where they can potentially help. The announcement concludes saying that services that purposely break the law will be investigated - so again we go back to #4 above. This is nothing new, and self-custody is not being criminalized. Phoenix Leaving As @jack said, it's feels completely unnecessary. Phoenix obviously is not a MSB and they are not doing anything illegal. In my view, their exit from the US app stores is a complete overreaction. Keep Calm Could "they" come after wallets, developers, mixers, nodes, LSPs, sidechains, eCash, VPNs, encryption, etc? It's totally possible. But if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about. To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights (@gladstein). It would be very difficult to change the law or stretch it to incriminate these things because it's all just information and software, which is speech. Some will try. But as they are trying, #Bitcoin is becoming more and more mainstream and integral to the world's financial system. #Bitcoin is freedom technology and it will continue on. Go outside this weekend and think about why you're here.
View quoted note →
With the amount of shit the govt let's slide involving corrupt financial institutions and banks I'm not buying that this is isolated. This seems very coordinated and trusting that this won't happen again on a bigger scale by these agencies is a fool's errand
Just to clarify I believe whirlpool was was a CoinJoin protocol right? Coordinated transaction batching. That is different from a general mixer which is where you combine funds. The difference matters I think, we need to separate these two facilities.
Phoenix and the others leaving the USA is completely understandable. The US passing legislation to steal Russia's forex sends a signal that the USA is now a rogue state where no assets are safe. Nobody sane will invest under such conditions. The dollar will go to hell. Europe is going the same way. We are witnessing state suicide. Get out !
"But if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about" ... I could agree with most of your post, but this sentence is quite unfortunate. This last week Bitcoin suffered -in my opinion- the worst blow of his lifetime, because FUNGIBILITY IS ESSENTIAL for Bitcoin to be a true alternative to the fiat system. And mixing tools like coinjoin are the main (if not the only) way to stop the increasing attacks to that fungibility. To criminalize the Samourai developers will have and is ALREADY having serious consequences in the use of these tools, so there is MUCH to worry about. Snowden saw this really fast and the very same day he wrote: "The way to fix this it to make money private by default." I agree 100%, it is the way.
“Phoenix obviously is not a MSB” where are you getting this from? nobody has the slightest fucking clue what is and is not an MSB because the “rules” are designed to protect a cartel and punish competition. rational people react to the credibility of physical threats, not to words written down somewhere that conveniently contradict these threats.
↩ replying to npub10z0y...ekgh
I'm sorry to disappoint you but people were told they can avoid government sanctions by using bitcoin back in 2009. If bitcoin is not capable of avoiding sanctions imposed by state actors then bitcoin is not useful at all. Samourai are just more principled and straightforward as a company than many others. I remember the time many years ago when your colleagues argued that Bitcoin-QT GUI should not be translated into Farsi because of the sanctions on Iran imposed by the United States. Obviously, DOJ & Co have not learned the lessons of that time. The elites of the United Sanction of America and their satellites are more and more isolated from the rest of the world. They can not recognize the grave mistakes they made. So, they end up fucking their own population.
↩ replying to npub1t5h0...fr8l
Bitcoin is not a business. Their are no representative promoting it for criminal activities. Samourai is a business. There are people running that business. Those people are identifiable. They promoted their services to avoid sanctions to Russian oligarchs. The US is engaged in a proxi war with Russia. They knew their service was used for criminal activities, why make it worste by welcoming Russian oligarchs looking to circumvent senctiond. To use your expression, they fucked themselves over.
"Reading the charges..." Ha! I laughed out loud. Consider the source before putting things in context based on the charges. Comments on nostr may be exaggerated, but the authorities have earned the ire. This line of reasoning is typical Maxi Pragmatism.
> To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights Wrong. any court will say "you can wipe your ass with the Bill of Rights, in this court is the rule of Maritime law". If you identify as a citizen you give away all your rights. Citizen means slave, state employee. Only sovereign individual have rights. Legal Title Removal of your status is done to you by way of sleight of hand, by making you accept a Legal Title and all the legislation that applies to it. Changing your status makes you agree to waive all your rights in exchange for benefits and privileges. However these so called benefits are nothing of the sort. Privileges: means asking permission to have your freedom back. Benefits: mean you now have to pay any charges or bills, or even go to prison. The following are legal terms, and if you accept them you have been moved out of a Court of Law and into a Legal Court or a court of legislation; you have lost your sovereign status. Note: Anything written in all caps letters refers to Dog Latin, Glossa or ASL meaning your name in all caps letters makes reference to your dead entity, or corporate fiction. Person The word person comes from the Latin word Persona, meaning: human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character. This originates from a mask, or false face, that covered the whole head, which was worn by the actors in Roman theatre. The word Person today is making reference to your Legal Identity, and not you as a sovereign. If you accept this title then you are now within the Legal World or System, with the lowest status within an administrative court. The meaning of the word Person includes Natural Person, Firm, Co-partnership, Association, Limited Liability Company or Corporation. Civil Society Civil means “Roman”, which refers to Roman Law, which in turn actually refers to legislation and not law. Meaning a Civil Society is a group of people who have unknowingly agreed to be part of, and a member of, a society that is controlled by Roman legislation. The origin of modern day Equity Law is England. The origin of modern day Legislation is Rome.
Thanks helpful, and it seems my sap failed to go thru. Will try again later as advised. It also seems like Samourai should have just advised the criminals to stick with the $100 dollar bill. Truly appreciated breakdown but I'd really appreciate hearing your take on supply and demand issues. Particularly, why with all the added institutional adoption, ETF's and other favorable demands on Bitcoins dwindling supply, why the fiat price has not rocketed thru the outskirts of the galaxy yet? Thanks again and much peace to you and yours.
I'm not sure if everyone is "overreacting." Personally, it is scary to witness. Just because those arrested are not us or our loved ones, doesn't mean that there isn't an overreach being committed which leads to more and more overreaches. We've lost amendments already. I mean, fur realz... I can't even do what I need to do with my land or my house the things that could improve the quality of our lives and even that of our neighbors without spending tens of thousands of dollars on permits, inspections, denials, fines & ultimately an enforcement to cease and desist. It's extremely oppressive, discouraging of any entrepreneurial/contributing independence. This isn't a case that's just a Chinafornia exclusive situation. This is happening in property we have at other states as well. Blue or Red, don't matter anymore. Since all I can do is pipe about things, I just beg us all to please #pray, #meditate and to ask for #calrity, #creativity, #peace, #strategy, #courage, #empathy, #sympathy, #skills, #stealth... you name it. Anything and Everything that we may need as #Bitcoiners, #Nostriches, #Plebs, #Citizens of this planet, #Humans... to #organize ourselves #strategically to be able to miraculously turn our enemies into either the biggest fans of those values we know are needed for our pursuit of #happiness & #freedom, or to turn them into the most ineffective little nuisances that aren't able to control any of us in ANY WAY.
You seem to indicate that the system of laws/justice system in the USA as indicated by your comment, "We'll find out in the trial" is legitimate and uncorruptible (Perhaps Phoenix doesn't share your view, hence, exit) . Either you are trying to be cute or you haven't been keeping up with the state of the US legal process over the past 10 years.
In it's press release the U.S. Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York, doesn't say anything about self custody wallet, mixer, privacy, or marketing to criminals. Samourai co-founders were charged "with conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business. These charges arise from the defendants’ development, marketing, and operation of a cryptocurrency mixer that executed over $2 billion in unlawful transactions and facilitated more than $100 million in money laundering transactions from illegal dark web markets, such as Silk Road and Hydra Market; a web-server intrusion; a spearphishing scheme; and schemes to defraud multiple decentralized finance protocols."
 
 It's about money laundering and unlicensed money transmitting business.
Hello, @Samson Mow , While I truly appreciate your promotion of bitcoin adoption worldwide, this statement concerns me: > "To my knowledge, there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected, and privacy is enshrined in the Bill of Rights ( @gladstein )." I am concerned because your remark reveals either a woefully dangerous lack of awareness of the present state of the American justice system, or deliberate, willful ignorance thereof for the sake of plausible deniability in your diplomatic adventures. "Rule of law" was deep-sixed decades ago in America, as clearly proven by—for one clear instance—the callous "swatting" of Americans like Larken Rose for merely asking questions about the application of the law. His subsequent trial and conviction was but one of many that prove the United States is nothing more than a third-world, tin-pot dictatorship with NO respect for law, property, or human rights. Of course, while examples like the Rose case and many other clear, public examples of arbitrary state violations of law and property *abound*, news about them has been suppressed by TPTSB (The Powers That Shouldn't Be) and their captive media organizations. Thank God, the covid debacle of the past several years has brought such manipulations to greater awareness among the public. I can personally testify to the utter corruption of state agencies. More than once, a gaggle of armed federal, state, and local agents have crept up to my home and knocked on my door; Why? To deliver a piece of paper that could have been sent through the mail. I have also experience the "joy" of a federal agency FAXing my bank "Give us all his money," to which the bank replied "Here you go." So, I'm placing you on notice; you can NO LONGER assert "there is still rule of law in the US, property rights are still protected." THIS is why #bitcoin is vital for the common man. THIS is why the absolute nature of #bitcoin as property that is #permissionless and #unconfiscatable must be protected by the community at all costs. THIS is why we MUST respond with constant vigilance, particularly making every effort to strengthen bitcoin's decentralization and robustness in the face of existential threats like the FBI, SEC, and all other corrupt state and corporate actors. We of course also welcome the most rapid, globally widespread, universal adoption of bitcoin that you are so admirably working towards, along with the proliferation of tools for its use by everyman. image
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