Thread

no choice to switch to something non-custodial. this is what NWC enables.

try @ZEUS wallet to see why you're wrong

I understand your perspective. NWC in Signal would be a cool option to have as well, albeit with some relative UX challenges. Have you thought about it through a privacy lens though, or do you just not think that’s important in this context as zaps are public by default?

i just want to be able to use my wallet of choice to send a payment. maybe pull zaps help here noste:note1suap3swthax7vspap2tdhh62mspnxzfvkapcklw79deqqldp326qj7hqtn that way the user can also redeem into any wallet they want directly with lightning

A bit difficult as it requires the sender to have a 24/7 online node. I think hedgehog fixes this though cc @Super Testnet

i feel like bolt12 invoice_requests solve most of the problems ecash is trying to solve? and it's done directly over lightning.

a custodial node could mint these too though. the receiver can also use any lightning wallet.

🤦 then what problem are we solving for here? To the same effect you can run your own Cashu mint and make it self-custodial

basically it's the same functionality as cashu, but users still get the option of running their own node for self sovereignty. this is really my only gripe. I will never run a cashu node so I basically get left out of Bitcoin payment infrastructure even though I am running the nodes? make it make sense.

running a cashu node makes no sense for a single user

unless the goal is just to have lightning as the rails for custodial Bitcoin banks. if that's the future I don't want any part of it

Sure. I sympathize with you but your proposed solution has clear flaws. Need something like proper async payment built into LN or Hedgehog. People are working on both of these.

I am not proposing anything crazy. just that NWC should be the standard for integration payments so that you don't force custodial payments everywhere. we didn't build up the p2p lightning infrastructure just for it to be ignored and bastardized by custodial solutions. it doesn't need to be a zap if you want to render something. the client could just send a DM once it verifies the payment went through. just basic lightning payments. receiver just needs a bolt12 offer or silent payment address in their bio.

Sure but you’re neglecting that NWC has tradeoffs. When you use NWC+Coinos, which is the default in Damus, Coinos has full visibility into everything you do. If you just used Coinos as a Cashu mint (which they offer) users would have better privacy.

yes it's users choice, that's the point. whether it be your own node or a cashu node. in the future ideally we can get this this ux everywhere to avoid lnurl: View quoted note →

im pretty sure my own node has more privacy than me connecting to a cashu node. we don't want to exclude people who want even more privacy

Defaults matter though. Would be curious to see what percentage of users here use the default custodial service vs self-custodial. You’re also not taking into consideration the context of the apps as well. Social media app VS a private messenger: I’d argue for the former privacy is not so important whereas for the latter it’s imperative. There’s a lot of nuance here and I think it sucks that you’re trying to moralize and shame something that would be genuine improvement in the ecosystem.

id be completely fine if it defaulted to a cashu node. I just want to be able to use my node for sending payments.

I’m not 100% sure on the Signal POC UX in its current state but you can absolutely do this with Cashu in general. You can also set it up to automatically sweep Cashu payments to self-custody. We have done this in @ZEUS

would happy to see the code for that so i can use it anytime i need to sweep

If theres a send/recv solution i can implement with a tool then i would be happy. I just don’t want to run a cashu node because that makes no sense

I made Bankify as a POC for how easy it is to receive cashu and convert it to LN:

GitHub

GitHub - supertestnet/bankify: Turn any cashu mint into a lightning wallet with NWC support

Turn any cashu mint into a lightning wallet with NWC support - supertestnet/bankify

As usual, I don't recommend using my code directly, but consider reimplementing it. It's not a lot of logic to do this.

thx will take a look

can someone run a node and implement just enough of the cashu protocol that they can use cashu wallets and the signal integration directly with their own node?

Yeah, you could set up a mint that only you can issue tokens from, that way your friends are redeeming from your node

If Lightning and Bitcoin are successful then it’ll be the rails for many types and models of banks and probably new fintech models altogether. Maybe not globally but I can already see geographically advantaged areas emerging. And interestingly if the state doesn’t interfere with running a Cashu mint then Bitcoin will probably do best there as a result.

you give up sovereignty for privacy. bad tradeoff. I would be fine with it if you could upgrade to self custody, but you can't, it makes no sense to run a cashu node for yourself.

it's a built-in custodial wallet, could be cashu as well. nothing to do with NWC.

damus does not have a built in wallet. no idea what you're talking about. it has everything to do with NWC, its the tech that enables self sovereignty.

cool.

Can I interview both of you guys on this topic on a panel, a respectful conversation about sovereignty and privacy? I'd like to lose the rhetoric "giving up sovereignty for custodied privacy" and instead discuss trade offs and risks we all make, encouraging people to look into bitcoin, nostr, cashu, Damus, and coinos. The goal for me is just interviewing a couple of my most technically talented friends, secondary is mass market accessibility to these important topics.

👀

it's all about options.

nwc doesn't force anyone to be a purist. it works with both cashu and self custodied nodes

forcing people to use cashu is pushing a specific NWC connection type, it's the opposite of choice

Yeah, but the way in which you speak ("cashu is not bitcoin") ignores the fact that you are a power user and there are levels to this game. I spend time running my farm so i dont have time to make sure i have 100% uptime on my node.

this is what the market is for, to build better solutions. NWC opens that up to tons of future improvements.

Are you implying they could have implemented the same ux without cashu and done native lighting?

of course, also native lightning is still improving: async payments, etc

are you okay with signal having the monero option

no, I have no idea what you're talking about. you are on a roll today with strawmen

Well, you should know what he's talking about.. knowing both sides is kind-of important when comparing

Or for zapping 21 sats here & there

I am not that interested in custodial anything to be honest. I didn’t get into bitcoin to store money on other peoples computers.

I bet this statement would get more traction if you were vlogging about it and werent wearing a shirt.

will, i do not have to know what this means to cheer you on! i trust you

Agreed no one would hold more than a days worth of value in ecash. It’s a useful off ramp for bitcoin as i see it.

It's a bearer asset. A string of characters that the mint agrees to trade for bitcoin. E.g. your cashu wallet asks the mint to make a lighting payment for you, and you give it these cashu tokens to pay for it So basically you swap lighting for cashu, and vice versa The token is essentially an IOU with a serial number, signed by the mint The cool thing of that the mint signs the IOU without seeing the serial number (cool maths going back to 1982), and therefore it's very private. The mint makes the payment, after verifying the signature and checking for double spending with the serial number, but the mint doesn't know who it originally issued that token to Cashu wallets pay and receive lightning like any lightning wallet, but with this extra bit of privacy. It has other advantages too, I'm working on very high frequency micropayments with Cashu (sending a millisat, hundreds of times every second) But the obvious risk if that the mint can steal it. So the balance should be kept small.

I agree

I disagree. They both have use cases. In saying that, I remember back around 2014 when a lot of stores started accepted Bitcoin we just relied on 0 conf transactions. The likelihood of someone trying to double spend small transactions is so low.

Just because it has a use case, doesn't make it Bitcoin. Fiat has a use case, still it's not Bitcoin.

Cut the rates boomer

I already cut the rates I charge your Mom. It's not my fault she's broke.

That hurt my feelings

Sorry bro, I didn't mean that. I just get tired of being called boomer all the time.

this apology makes me feel warm and happy inside. people on the internet DO care about feelings