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This is the current situation. - You buy something with Bitcoin: In most countries you have to pay vat and in addition capital gains between the difference of buying and selling Bitcoin if you have made a profit. This is an approximate 20% + 20% (of the profit) (It depends on each country). - You sell Bitcoin: You pay between 20% and 30% of the profit (Depending on country). You have a lot of Bitcoin: In some countries you will pay wealth tax. You have a lot of unrealized gains: In many countries they are trying to apply this, soon we will have the first country to do so. If you have bought bitcoin with KYC you are screwed, the exchanges will end up passing all the data to the states and their respective tax offices. If you have non-kyc bitcoin you can only use it to buy a soda, if you use it to buy a car or a house they will accuse you of money laundering, drug trafficking or whatever they want. And you think bitcoiners have won? You can go to a country that has more lax tax regulations but tax havens are becoming increasingly difficult. You have to try to make Bitcoin legal tender, and to do this you have to use your Bitcoin, and you have to accept Bitcoin as payment, only by creating a large black market where you do not have to pay taxes you can bend the state, otherwise your Bitcoin will only enrich the state. During all these years the HODL strategy has been totally wrong, while we have carried out HODL the states have encircled us. We came here for freedom.

Replies (46)

He pensando mucho en esto. Estoy de acuerdo. Creo que el espΓ­ritu y la filosofΓ­a de bitcoin nunca ha sido incorporarse al sistema estatal sino existir independiente a este y a pesar del estado. Solo cuando los bitcoiners formen una red lo suficientemente grande para mantenerse aparte de la red de intercambios regulada por algΓΊn gobierno Bitcoin podrΓ‘ desarrollar todo su potencial. #hola #hispano #bitcoin #btc #plebs #plebchain #sats #zap #GM
Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
This is the current situation. - You buy something with Bitcoin: In most countries you have to pay vat and in addition capital gains between the difference of buying and selling Bitcoin if you have made a profit. This is an approximate 20% + 20% (of the profit) (It depends on each country). - You sell Bitcoin: You pay between 20% and 30% of the profit (Depending on country). You have a lot of Bitcoin: In some countries you will pay wealth tax. You have a lot of unrealized gains: In many countries they are trying to apply this, soon we will have the first country to do so. If you have bought bitcoin with KYC you are screwed, the exchanges will end up passing all the data to the states and their respective tax offices. If you have non-kyc bitcoin you can only use it to buy a soda, if you use it to buy a car or a house they will accuse you of money laundering, drug trafficking or whatever they want. And you think bitcoiners have won? You can go to a country that has more lax tax regulations but tax havens are becoming increasingly difficult. You have to try to make Bitcoin legal tender, and to do this you have to use your Bitcoin, and you have to accept Bitcoin as payment, only by creating a large black market where you do not have to pay taxes you can bend the state, otherwise your Bitcoin will only enrich the state. During all these years the HODL strategy has been totally wrong, while we have carried out HODL the states have encircled us. We came here for freedom.
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I like this take. It also makes me think that the inferior money the US federal government spends on IRS agents, infrastructure and records could easily by shifted into mining Bitcoin and the return on investment would outpace all the nonsense of imprisonment, violence, garnishment and tax filing. Seriously, why not mine Bitcoin and run lightning nodes? I'm sure the agents would rather be tech minded miners, node runners and Bitcoin gurus. It's amazing and it's sad that they are dying and yet they keep hitting the stimulation button for their fix of power. Utility companies, City, county, state and Fed governments could even get rid of big data wearhouses by putting the miners in people's businesses and homes. Providing a real service of data, power and shared income.
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Bitcoin needs to be black money
Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
This is the current situation. - You buy something with Bitcoin: In most countries you have to pay vat and in addition capital gains between the difference of buying and selling Bitcoin if you have made a profit. This is an approximate 20% + 20% (of the profit) (It depends on each country). - You sell Bitcoin: You pay between 20% and 30% of the profit (Depending on country). You have a lot of Bitcoin: In some countries you will pay wealth tax. You have a lot of unrealized gains: In many countries they are trying to apply this, soon we will have the first country to do so. If you have bought bitcoin with KYC you are screwed, the exchanges will end up passing all the data to the states and their respective tax offices. If you have non-kyc bitcoin you can only use it to buy a soda, if you use it to buy a car or a house they will accuse you of money laundering, drug trafficking or whatever they want. And you think bitcoiners have won? You can go to a country that has more lax tax regulations but tax havens are becoming increasingly difficult. You have to try to make Bitcoin legal tender, and to do this you have to use your Bitcoin, and you have to accept Bitcoin as payment, only by creating a large black market where you do not have to pay taxes you can bend the state, otherwise your Bitcoin will only enrich the state. During all these years the HODL strategy has been totally wrong, while we have carried out HODL the states have encircled us. We came here for freedom.
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Make β‚Ώitcoin Peer 2 Peer Cash Again!
Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
This is the current situation. - You buy something with Bitcoin: In most countries you have to pay vat and in addition capital gains between the difference of buying and selling Bitcoin if you have made a profit. This is an approximate 20% + 20% (of the profit) (It depends on each country). - You sell Bitcoin: You pay between 20% and 30% of the profit (Depending on country). You have a lot of Bitcoin: In some countries you will pay wealth tax. You have a lot of unrealized gains: In many countries they are trying to apply this, soon we will have the first country to do so. If you have bought bitcoin with KYC you are screwed, the exchanges will end up passing all the data to the states and their respective tax offices. If you have non-kyc bitcoin you can only use it to buy a soda, if you use it to buy a car or a house they will accuse you of money laundering, drug trafficking or whatever they want. And you think bitcoiners have won? You can go to a country that has more lax tax regulations but tax havens are becoming increasingly difficult. You have to try to make Bitcoin legal tender, and to do this you have to use your Bitcoin, and you have to accept Bitcoin as payment, only by creating a large black market where you do not have to pay taxes you can bend the state, otherwise your Bitcoin will only enrich the state. During all these years the HODL strategy has been totally wrong, while we have carried out HODL the states have encircled us. We came here for freedom.
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I agree with the need, and the local, grassroots (aka decentralized) approach. I also appreciate that you didn't say people wouldn't pay sales tax at a black market, but that they don't have to. Good choice of words! I'm not so sure shorting local governments from tax revenue is going to win them over to make BTC legal tender. Maybe there's something here though. Things frequently aren't legalized until the laws prohibiting them are irrelevant (e.g. abortion in America), so maybe it's similar here. Perhaps a point of leverage would be something along the lines of this: "Hey, I sold 1M sats worth of goods this month, and I'd be happy to pay you the 90K sats for the sales tax." Let them decide if it's worth it to them to accept bitcoin or perhaps even encourage its use. If they're willing to listen, explain the costs of trying to find a buyer, never getting market rate, having the additional burden of tracking cost/value at different times, etc. Turning sats into fiat takes effort. This would make it clear to them that just accepting bitcoin payments for sales tax would benefit them, and reduce the burden on people, thus helping them win over the hearts and minds of their constituents. I'm curious to hear from people who have tried these types of approaches. How did it go? What objections did you hear? What local officials were you able to gain as allies?
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Then you hear the arguments but you can't buy a house with Monero or a car. Always funny to hear that from guys which would never ever use their digital gold for such things. In general you have to be creative if you use Cryptos in your daily life. You have to adapt, try out, test etc. There is no perfect way for everyone. It's individual and everything is possible.
I think this is peak centralization. It was Covid and then these first post years. Everything from here on now will go in the other direction. USA (biggest capital market in the world) going very very orange pilled (Trump, Eric Trump, a bunch of Bitcoiners in the inner circle), MSTR exploding, its strategy being accepted and replicated, Argentina going very red pill, plenty of other countries offering no tax on gains, China allowing Bitcoin (huge), also new jurisdictions offering tax benefits, BTCmap increasing 40% in 2024 alone, a bunch of small Bitcoin communities popping up everywhere. The next 4 years you'll see the pendulum strongly going in the other direction. What you're actually living right now is Year 0 of adoption. I don't think it can get more bullish than this.
What a world! I'm shifting more and more into a bitcoin lifestyle using Strike to pay bills as well as using other tools like Fold. Up until now, bitcoin has been a way for me to try to save for the future, but I see what you're saying. We need to use it, put it to work on a daily basis. I will still be saving as much as I can in bitcoin, but I will also try to live on a bitcoin standard in my daily life. Good write-up!
Holding and buying Bitcoin still puts pressure on the issuers of fiat. It's still a net gain for hodlers long-term, even with the 20%-50% exit tax. I agree that HODLing is only one leg of the strategy. Not the whole strategy. As soon as something like a Bitcoin circular economy emerges that includes goods production, it will become very hard to tax a system that does not involve fiat on/off ramps.
Holding and buying Bitcoin still puts pressure on the issuers of fiat. It's still a net gain for hodlers long-term, even with the 20%-50% exit tax. I agree that HODLing is only one leg of the strategy. Not the whole strategy. As soon as something like a Bitcoin circular economy emerges that includes goods production, it will become very hard to tax a system that does not involve fiat on/off ramps.
Holding and buying Bitcoin still puts pressure on the issuers of fiat. It's still a net gain for hodlers long-term, even with the 20%-50% exit tax. I agree that HODLing is only one leg of the strategy. Not the whole strategy. As soon as something like a Bitcoin circular economy emerges that includes goods production, it will become very hard to tax a system that does not involve fiat on/off ramps.
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↩ replying to npub1zhms...s67x
So what .. it happens all the time .. devs start working to solve an inferior problem and they end up hitting a jackpot .. Google guys just wanted to make a page rank algo and they went to sell it to Yahoo ... You know the history .. same thing happened to Bitcoin .. Satoshi were targeting a simpler problem but due to their incredible insights in math , cryptography and coding ..they created GOLD ... I hope you understand creating a GOLD replacement is a LOT HARDER problem than fiat replacement ! ..
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↩ replying to npub10q9t...3zpw
Yes Satoshi did start with a p2p cash system in mind .. but ended up creating digital gold ..
Satosha's avatar Satosha
So what .. it happens all the time .. devs start working to solve an inferior problem and they end up hitting a jackpot .. Google guys just wanted to make a page rank algo and they went to sell it to Yahoo ... You know the history .. same thing happened to Bitcoin .. Satoshi were targeting a simpler problem but due to their incredible insights in math , cryptography and coding ..they created GOLD ... I hope you understand creating a GOLD replacement is a LOT HARDER problem than fiat replacement ! ..
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We will never be able to shake of the system they created. They will always find a way to bring the water to their mill. πŸ˜’ only way is off grid and self sustain... that is the way to lose THEM!
Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
This is the current situation. - You buy something with Bitcoin: In most countries you have to pay vat and in addition capital gains between the difference of buying and selling Bitcoin if you have made a profit. This is an approximate 20% + 20% (of the profit) (It depends on each country). - You sell Bitcoin: You pay between 20% and 30% of the profit (Depending on country). You have a lot of Bitcoin: In some countries you will pay wealth tax. You have a lot of unrealized gains: In many countries they are trying to apply this, soon we will have the first country to do so. If you have bought bitcoin with KYC you are screwed, the exchanges will end up passing all the data to the states and their respective tax offices. If you have non-kyc bitcoin you can only use it to buy a soda, if you use it to buy a car or a house they will accuse you of money laundering, drug trafficking or whatever they want. And you think bitcoiners have won? You can go to a country that has more lax tax regulations but tax havens are becoming increasingly difficult. You have to try to make Bitcoin legal tender, and to do this you have to use your Bitcoin, and you have to accept Bitcoin as payment, only by creating a large black market where you do not have to pay taxes you can bend the state, otherwise your Bitcoin will only enrich the state. During all these years the HODL strategy has been totally wrong, while we have carried out HODL the states have encircled us. We came here for freedom.
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