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Resist the cancel culture purity brigade and their moralizing mob mentality attacks on Bitcoin. Our cypherpunk values are privacy, censorship resistance, and decentralization. We do not moralize, censor, or trust anyone's judgment of what constitutes a good or a evil transaction. We do not ask for your permission or for anyone's approval of our voluntary interactions. We do not accept your attempts to split our networks into good and evil. For cypherpunks, all bytes are equal and we welcome anyone to contribute to our anonymity sets and to our economic strength. Our networks are open for anyone to join and participate. Our reliance comes from cryptography and the free market incentives of our networks. Our values are aligned with our strengths. We will not negotiate with you. Your attempts to undermine Bitcoin's core principles will fail. image

Replies (64)

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Are they really? Why would you run a client that is being controlled by a religious fanatic that thinks the state is in its right to govern people? That openly argued for censoring transactions that were connected to gambling aka sinful acts? I do not feel this is the right way to go for open source freedom tech that is of utmost importance to humanity.
Yes, they are. Bitcoin Knots gives you the freedom to set your OP_RETURN however you want and that is true for all filters, for YOUR mempool settings and everything else. Core has flagged the setting for OP_RETURN as DEPRECATED, meaning in future it will be gone thus taking away your freedom. Core devs CENSORED Bitcoin contributers on Github for mentioning Citrea, the shitcoin company that corrupted them and aims to turn Bitcoin into Ethereum like shitcoin. Core devs ATTACKED Bitcoin Knots node runners. Core devs lied, gaslighted and gave arguments that correspond to insanity. Speaking about Luke, some really intelligent people call him The Guarding Angel of Bitcoin. Also many Bitcoin developers contribute to Bitcoin Knots
Super Testnet's avatar Super Testnet
At least 10 devs deliberately contribute to Knots: 1 x.com/LukeDashjr, https://github.com/luke-jr 2 x.com/leo_haf, https://github.com/retropex 3 x.com/bigshiny90, https://github.com/bigshiny90 4 x.com/009Ataraxi71445, https://github.com/ataraxia009 5 https://github.com/pithosian 6 x.com/cguida6, https://github.com/chrisguida 7 x.com/1440000bytes, https://github.com/1440000bytes 8 x.com/dr0ther, https://github.com/dr0ther 9 x.com/Kurtis_NZ, https://github.com/KurtisStirling 10 https://github.com/kwsantiago Any others?
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The settings is still configurable, and it is not a given that it will be eliminated given the current fiasco. You didn't address the core premise in my reply: only one person has commit power in Knots and they guy is a known religius fanatic that defends state's right to government people. It is not a trivial thing. It brink all of the Knots guys are being hoodwinked. If you're so keen on choice, just run earlier versions of Core, instead being knots only guy.
discrimination is necessary. You cant just say that its its censorship because people don't want to go along with a loosening of a restriction. There is also no indication of the knots side ever wanting to censor monetary transactions. If you think Luke is crazy for such and such reason and how he may do something in future then just say it thoughtfully. Nothing so far has indicated that anyone wants drift away from bitcoins ultimate goal of being the global monetary network.
Why is discrimination necessary? If it was necessary I would presume we need a fork to make this consensus. This is the same type of thing you would have heard from the State if we gave them an option to help design the new system. "We need to have the authority to stop bad TX." However, here, you're just putting bad TX on a more exploitable and longer-term more costly location, UTXO set. Costly for yourself, as a node operator. There is no option on the table to make Bitcoin purely monetary, you get that right? That's gone. We already added features, changed consensus.
It's a bug fix. It's not a big change. We have created two different mem-pools. This is a bad outcome and needs a bug fix. It forces developers to hack around and find private and privileged access to the mem-pools they need. Users will have to go through centralized companies to get this access for themselves, to use these apps. Instead of these apps being decentralized and serving the politics of Bitcoin they will be centralized and serve standard politics. You've stopped nothing, you've only made things harder for everyone. Present and future node operators and developers and users.
The intellectual superiority in this discussion has been pretty annoying. I tinker, but i'm not a coder. Your technical knowledge is undoubtedly superior to mine, but with a little time and study, I am capable of understanding. What my life and career has taught me to understand though is human nature. Ultimately, if you do anything that affects a large group of people that defies human nature, it is doomed to fail. For example, whilst we appreciate the cypherpunk mission - the idea "all bytes are equal" defies human nature and universal morality. Especially when we consider things like images of abuse (now) or plans for personal issue mass murder weapons (in the future - nuclear or biological). Ignoring this reality will alienate 99% of the population and undermine the spread of the privacy tools and freedom money that we all need, which it is important to remember, we all care about here. Whilst "we" may never align on this issue, we do on so many others. Life is a messy balance - if a system is technically perfect but socially unusable, it fails its purpose and will be marginalised. I believe Hal understood this.
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Sorry you feel that way but nobody is talking about intellectual superiority. That's your projection. This isn't about being nice and I'm not here to make you feel good. If you fall for the emotional propaganda of the Knots people, that's gonna be only your problem. Bitcoin doesn't run on emotions or etiquette, it runs on raw numbers. There is no nice way to say this but Bitcoin doesn't care. Better to get used to that. That being said, I will never belittle anyone who doesn't understand complex issues about Bitcoin. It took me years of studying and working on Bitcoin to start to understand its intricacies and dynamics, its monetary properties and incentive structures. I strongly believe that being a good, kind, and patient person is one of the most important things in life. However, I will not tolerate attacks from the angry mob or any form of aggressive behavior towards me or the people I support. Play foul and you can expect an appropriate response. I'm not a politician, I don't need anyone's sympathy. I will also not tolerate attacks on Bitcoin and the ideals it's built on. When I see a concerted effort to undermine Bitcoin, its ecosystem, and the people who tirelessly work on it, expect resistance.
Here is an example from one day ago. There’s numerous other messages from a variety of people that basically say “do you know who I am?” This is not a projection. That aside, I agree with much of what you said in your reply above and decided to engage in good faith initially because I thought it would be taken as such, and I was right. I am grateful for the things you are building and very much appreciate you defending the things you care about. I have been studying bitcoin basically non-stop (as many do) for over 5 years now (I accept I’m still new) and from a pleb, I think much of the concern is from a philosophical point of view on the things I mentioned earlier. Having the concerns responded to previously with “you don’t know what you’re talking about” is deeply unfortunate and unhelpful. It’s the type of “expert” behaviour we’ve come to despise (I’m not saying you have done this). I also think most people do not care about Knots - it’s essentially a protest or concern against Core v30 and the changes being made. Many are saying they’re gonna keep running older versions. You’re right that Bitcoin doesn’t care. It’s one of the properties we all love. But equally plebs don’t care, we’re a bunch of psychos, and we’ll have our say about the governance of Bitcoin whether devs like it or not. Whether devs think this is a philosophical debate or not is also irrelevant. Many node runners and plebs think it is. Maybe that’s from our previous ignorance of the technical matters. But you say “all bytes are equal” and we’re now coming to understand what this means for the future of Bitcoin and how much data can be stored. I would expect push back against arbitrary data storage (even though it meets consensus) to continue. It’s very clear that Bitcoin is like no other protocol that we’ve ever seen. It’s bound to create tension. It’s just a shame to see the the unpleasantness I read about in the Blocksize Wars playing out again. Although I guess that’s human nature. Thanks Calle. You’re a legend. ✌️ image
The intellectual superiority in this discussion has been pretty annoying. I tinker, but i'm not a coder. Your technical knowledge is undoubtedly superior to mine, but with a little time and study, I am capable of understanding. What my life and career has taught me to understand though is human nature. Ultimately, if you do anything that affects a large group of people that defies human nature, it is doomed to fail. For example, whilst we appreciate the cypherpunk mission - the idea "all bytes are equal" defies human nature and universal morality. Especially when we consider things like images of abuse (now) or plans for personal issue mass murder weapons (in the future - nuclear or biological). Ignoring this reality will alienate 99% of the population and undermine the spread of the privacy tools and freedom money that we all need, which it is important to remember, we all care about here. Whilst "we" may never align on this issue, we do on so many others. Life is a messy balance - if a system is technically perfect but socially unusable, it fails its purpose and will be marginalised. I believe Hal understood this. View quoted note →
We are the very community that support you and work with you for the same goals. Why broadcast such a stance when those words seem to divide, not bridge, our ability to communicate for this very purpose. Bitcoin was always about implementing a trustless protocol so we could focus that value on better things, like seeking a better way to resolve problems than the very repetitive and opportunistic ways may of our current leaders do. A true leader builds the way we can come together, the same thing bitcoin is trying to do.
>Resist the cancel culture purity brigade and their moralizing mob mentality attacks on Bitcoin. You mean the bitcoin who just don't want to store YOUR jpegs on THEIR node? >We do not ask for your permission or for anyone's approval of our voluntary interactions. You ARE asking permission to store your filth on my computer and MANY bitcoiners don't want to do that. Node runners signed up to run a monetary network and people like you are taking advantage of how the system works to use their nodes for things they did not agree to. Are you that much of a narcissist that you are willing to discourage people from running a node just so you can put an image somewhere it cant be removed. The only reason that data is permanent is because it is store on money. If the money isn't worth anything you loose your data and we loose our one chance at removing control of the money from the state. >Your attempts to undermine Bitcoin's core principles will fail. What are bitcoins core principles? Free cloud service for the world? Or freedom money for the world. If you were the ones fighting for bitcoins are the ones saying make bitcoin money again. You filtered me on twitter, how ironic, but now that I have your attention I challenge you to prove me wrong. You imply, if not explicitly say, that knots is censoring valid transactions. That is not true. Bitcoin IS censorship resistant and knots doesn't change that. Prove me wrong.
You‘re missing the point. Bitcoin is money. The perfect money. Now. No change required. Especially since this changed threatens Bitcoins immutability. Both in terms of adding non monetary data, as well advice process. A small group of corrupt developers supported by the propaganda machine of influencers isn’t consensus. The nodes decided at each individual level.
- Slow (only ~7tx's/s, needs 2nd layer in order to even work as a medium of exhange) - Not private by default (need to use mixers or other costly ways in order to be used privately) - Users need to verify and store hundreds of gigabytes data to verify the received bitcoin authenticy trustlessly - Value still volatile - Not used by everyone ...
The statement commits the noncentral fallacy (also known as the category error or the worst argument in the world). It labels the act of filtering certain Bitcoin transactions as “censorship,” invoking the strong negative connotations of that term (typically associated with authoritarian suppression of free speech or ideas), even though the action in question is atypical of the category—more akin to spam filtering or network moderation by decentralized participants rather than centralized control over expression. The premise that “all Bitcoin transactions are data” is used to blur distinctions and amplify the loaded term, but it doesn’t logically establish the conclusion.
Oh yes, but there is plenty we can do about it, pal. We can choose to run software like Knots that allows us node runners (who set the rules everyone has to follow whether they like it or not), to kick out all of your garbage, non-monetary spam. And the awesome part is the game theory will make it so that less and less people over time will run bogus nodes that have op_return bloat, and instead will opt out towards Knots instead. Folks like you will simply fade into irrelevance as Bitcoin only becomes more efficient as a monetary technology. You are a horse rider arguing against driving a car.
The irony is your misconception of “moralizing” If you are answering the question: “to what end?” you are moralizing. Both sides have equal moral footing regarding filters. Bitcoin doesn’t care if you filter or not. So filter if you want to filter, and don’t if you don’t.
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Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
By @udiWertheimer i read the luke dashjr hit piece. it's wrong. basically the entire article is wrong. i'm (obviously) not on luke's side, but guys this is just a sloppy low quality propaganda piece. first of all: sharing private messages is not cool. for many obvious ethical reasons. but one reason that is often overlooked is that sharing private messages often puts them out of context and makes it easy to construct a false narrative without understanding the conversation with that, let's look deeper into the article published by "the rage": the rage: "dashjr... proposes the implementation of a multisig quorum on bitcoin that grants a designated group of people the ability to retroactively alter data that is hosted on the blockchain" there is no discussion of "altering the data that is stored on the blockchain" anywhere in the screenshots provided. luke discusses a hypothetical mechanism that would allow knots node operators to avoid downloading "spam" that's already in blocks. imagine a hypothetical knots client that syncs blocks with a delay of eg 1 hour. when it downloads a block (late, on purpose), it pings luke's server and asks, "hey, is there any spam in this 1 hour old block?". luke's server responds with a list of transaction IDs that contain "spam", and provides a "zero knowledge proof" that proves to knots nodes that those "spam" transactions are valid, without having to download them. this is the magic of zk proofs and we don't need to get into how it works. suffice to say that the reason bitcoin nodes download transactions is to verify that they're valid, and if there's a way to verify without downloading them then the node can continue functioning without having to download the "spam". so now knots have a mechanism to avoid "spam" on their computer while still validating the chain. this doesn't remove the "spam" for the chain. it is still available on clients that don't run knots (70%+ of the network). core nodes continue to function as normal, with "spam" and with no issues, and continue to be in sync with knots nodes. the only difference is that the knots nodes can avoid ever downloading "spam", while staying on the same network the rage: "luke dashjr plans hard fork" this isn't true and it's a misunderstanding of what luke is saying. his messages do not describe a plan to hard fork bitcoin. he's referring to a technicality, saying that whenever knots nodes use a mechanism like the hypothetical knots node i described above, every time they avoid downloading a transaction they technically hard fork. but just technically, not really. it doesn't split the network, and those hypothetical knots nodes remain fully compatible with core nodes. core nodes can continue to verify, their chain is not censored, and they're fully synced with knots nodes. the rage: “right now the only options would be bitcoin dies or we have to trust someone,” dashjr writes. The proposed solution would require a consensus change, activating a bitcoin hardfork. the quote about "we have to trust someone" is taken out of context. luke is literally saying in the convo that thanks to zk proofs and his proposed solution, they would NOT need to trust anyone. the second part about a consensus change is made up. nothing in the screenshots suggests a consensus change. and i explained above that the "hard fork" bit is just a technicality. in this hypothetical design, there would be no chain split, and core nodes would remain compatible and uncensored. the rage: dashjr reveals that public letters are being drafted by third parties to seemingly support the sanctioning of illegal content on the entire Bitcoin network. the leaked conversation does not AT ALL mention a public letter that supports sanctioning illegal content "on the entire bitcoin network". luke is asked by his conversation partner a legal question, whether or not an op_return relay network will be perceived by authorities as illegal. luke replies that he can't answer that question because he's not a lawyer, but his understanding is that a group is working on a formal letter that addresses that legal question. as far as I can tell that hypothetical letter is a simple "legal opinion", not a letter that calls for sanctioning transactions on bitcoin. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 fyi, they hypothetical design of a knots node that i provide above is just that: hypothetical. the leaked dms don't go into implementation details at all so i had to fill in the blanks. luke might've had some other design in mind. but my description is conceptually correct, and the article's isn't. you can go back to the leaked screenshots and re-read them and tell me if anything there contradicts the hypothetical design I offered (nothing does). also, an important point is that the entire leaked convo is hypothetical. people are allowed to have hypothetical conversations. that doesn't mean there's some conspiracy. everyone I know that discusses this issue in private has brought up all kinds of weird ideas to me that doesn't mean they actually plan to implement them. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 my conclusion is that this article is a hit piece, and not a particularly good one. the most charitable explanation i can come up with is that the author misunderstood the leaked messages and wrote the incorrect article based on that misunderstanding but honestly it really seems that this isn't the case, it seems like the author was employing a lot of motivated reasoning to arrive at the conclusions in the article. the goal was to make luke bad, and his words were manipulated for maximum effect this isn't the first time "the rage" is doing this. last time it was a fake news article claiming that google is about to ban self-custody wallets from the android app store. it was based on the author's borderline malicious interpretation of the google store rules, to make them look like they're against self-custody. that was incorrect, but the fake news article got so viral that google itself had to issue a clarification saying that they have not and will not ban self-custody wallets from the android store. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 perhaps most disappointing was seeing many big names from the "anti-knots" camp jumping on this and declaring that luke is working on a hard fork, that "they knew it" and that soon we will be getting "airdrop fork coins" to sell. all of those things are false. this is, as always, a nothing burger. it's pretty obvious to me that this proposal never gets implemented, and even if it did, it does not censor the network and does not split the network, and remains fully compatible with core. it's actually, dare i say it, a pretty good hypothetical solution (to a problem that doesn't matter). i wish they'd implement it. but they probably won't. do better everyone. https://x.com/udiWertheimer/status/1971401252450734278
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