Thread

All of electricity is honestly.

Glitchy, unpolished but how is that a scam? [814595]

😂 💯 🧲

+1

Zaps > Lightning

It is scamming bitcoiners out of their time and energy and money for 6 years.

ummm has anyone asked @jack his opinion isn't he backing this budgerigar operation?

It’s a big improvement over the 1 transaction = 1 UTXO reality of blockspace. But I’m all ears on better concepts to scale Bitcoin transaction volume.

I did divest from it as a user by 75%. i agree on its unfriendliness to operate and the lack of clarity on the state of our funds present or future. However, isn't it the best tool we have to transfer micro-payments? [814599]

It doesn’t even flow in wires 😆

Monero on nostr @pluja might wreck zaps. Non-custodial setup accross anything. No messing around with channels.

Would love to see a PoC of that. I haven't found a good Monero wallet, but none of them need to neccessarily "connect to a node". Makes things easier. So yeah, would totally be down to try it.

Good is subjective so i'm not sure what you need out of a wallet. What haven't you liked out of the ones you've used ?

This is real cypherpunk. I approve salute 🫡. Not that you need my permission

I tip this reply with Lightning, which is a scam.

LN may be a scam, but Nostr does nothing to not look like it

Doesn't matter if it is the best thing currently, the problem is that it is being treated as basically the only possible future and the absurd amount of resources spent on it is only justified with that goal in mind, to the detriment of many other possibilities that could be explored simultaneously.

How about improving upon what has already been built? There are more than enough bright minds on Nostr i believe to offer improvement proposals if there are in your view critical flaws? [814683]

Cake and monerujo are the ones viable for mobile. Feather is good on the desktop.

I didn't note them all down, but the ones I tried were shoving market statistics in my face and usually multipurpose for XMR, BTC and other things. All I want is to create or restore a wallet, send, receive, see a transaction history and optionally have a contacts book. This other wanna-be stock market stuff is not what I am here for... I mean, most of the fiat apps I see don't include conversion rates in their main screen when you open the app. x) The one I am currently testing is StackDuo. BTC, Monero, simple and nice. Will give Cake and moneroju a try though, doesn't hurt to try things out. :)

Never heared about Feather. Thanks, will take a look!

First thing I would tacke is "Human friendly error messages." Second thing is simplyfying wallets. LND, CLN and Eclair all cook their own stew in this regard. We have nostr - use it. NWC is literally made for this. No need to set up a reverse proxy, works from within Tor or through a VPN and whatever. Third is making it less of an "exclusive club". Got no channels? Get rekt! ... This has to change. Not everyone has 100 USD flying around in a drawer to fund a channel to el-random-person and pray their uplink is and stays stable. Fourth: Link to existing Bitcoin wallets. Use what you got and extend upon that. Why do I need separate BTC addresses? Feels redundant and more to manage than neccessary.

The critical flaw is the existence of HTLCs. Remove HTLCs and you basically remove 99% of the complexity and things start working much better. It's too big of a change, it would basically mean starting from scratch with a new protocol -- and one that is not "trustless", so there would be crying. Try proposing this to any of the Lightning developers and watch their reaction.

too bad you can’t run a special lightning node that could support HTLC, PTLCs or whatever scheme you wanted, and act as a bridge or support multiple architectures

Agree, the list goes on and on... -relies on large centralizing middlemen nodes for succesful routing and cheapest fees -need capacity to recieve to begin with as you said -limited in the amount you can send -can't transact without both parties being online at the time of transaction -can be rugged if your node is offline -bad receiver privacy, IP is exposed by default, and hidden balances can be discovered by a passive adversary -can be force closed onto the base chain against your will -ability to grief honest users with zero cost -worst of all it isn't a real solution for scaling for all the downsides you take on Another big thing that recently came to light. Critical security issues discovered that are unresolvable without base layer changes (we both know how nearly impossible that would be) lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

Manerujo is what you want. I agree simple uncomplicated design is a great heuristic. Cake is great for exchanging between btc and xmr, but for xmr only on mobile, manerujo.

What didya say

I tried to zap you but there was a problem

Oh. Thanks for the info! I can't access it through zeus either - welp, time to update my stuff I guess XD

My node runs through Tor though...?

yeah mine too so I guess that's the reason

Doesn't Phoenix use their own LN node implementation? But, good point. One channel, one peer. My internet is quite stable (98% reachable - the missing points are during the time my ISP changes my IP and my modem goes haywire for a moment, but then everything is fine again). Guess I am going channel hunting!

Poor excuse to blame these things on users. Good engineering (KISS principle) and UX are laughably bad and not well thought out on LN. Ingwie seems above average in his technical knowledge and I always see him and many others struggling with it. The average person is never going to do all these technical gymnastics. Lightning is hot garbage. Time to scrap it and figure something else out.

Retarded take, there are well engineered lightning wallets for end users, but a pure lightning node like CLN or LND needs to expose the raw stuff and is not built for ease of use in regards to simple payments. Its built as a powerful tool to interact with the lightning network in all possible ways. Saying CLN is not user friendly enough is like saying the back end software of your bank is not user friendly enough (which they hire engenieers for)

Yes phoenix runs on their (Acinq's) implementation called Eclair. This is a very reliable and easy to use setup. But if you want to self host some good channels to highly connected peers (like the Acinq node) really help with reliability. Also Tor really makes things unreliable, which is a Tor problem, not a Lightning problem as you could run everything on clearnet too.

Yes, and consider how centralized and permissioned the backend software of your bank is. Complexity go up, decentralization go down. And that's exactly what we see with lightning. Overwhelmingly used custodially

maxis always blame others and never self reflect. you used the wrong wallets, you connected to the wrong nodes, you messed up your channels... how about build a L2 that doesn't have a wrong wallet, a wrong node, or a wrong channel? a L2 that isn't for pocket change on a microblog echochamber? is that so hard? there is no second-best.

Exactly my mood. I can not bring myself to trust a custodial solution, at all, because I do not see this as the real purpose of even holding any sats, BTC or whatever (unless it's a conversion service like Bitrefill where it makes sense to have a temporary custodial wallet to convert out from). But man do I wish CLN was a little... better. Cryptic messages, only JSON output on the CLI (I am not a maschine...) and only Zeus seems to support it, at all, via a plugin, that requires you now to disable an internal plugin, further complicating things. I WISH I had gone with LND. There is so much more support for that out there than CLN, like a LOT.