Thread

Gresham's law.

Because I get points from paying with a credit card, I don’t have to pay for 30 days, and by the time I have to pay, fiat has further devalued against BTC. Why would I pay the Sam Also, many retailers give a 10% discount if you are a member of a club. My local cycling store gives me a 10% discount for being a member of a local club. It adds up $$ savings for me and is where I buy all my gear. For example, buying new shoes, I save 20 bucks just for being a club member. Coffee shops and merchants can do the same thing. If they want to attract a new clientele, this is what they need to do. The 10% discount more than pays off if the new client shows up a second time. In the end, it’s all about fees and discounts.

Yup.

my dude hasn't heard of spend and replace i guess?

It's a taxing event in some locations.

😂

Yeah, it’s nuts. That’s why I record a transaction both in fiat at the time of transaction and sats.

What if I can't replace?

how can you not replace? if you were going to buy the item, it sounds like you had the funds to make that purchase.

I'm out of fiat for years

A lot of people live on credit. Yes, maybe they shouldn't spend that money if they don't have it, but that's not the reality we live in.

then it sounds like you couldn't make the purchase then.

sure, i do that every single month. it's easy and i earn free money for doing it. but if i did'nt have the means to pay it off every month, i wouldn't do that, meaning i wouldn't be able to make that purchase in the first place.

‘Replace’ means exchange rates and exchange fees. Plus KYC surveillance. Every time I use an exchange, I risk getting my bank account shut down for no good reason.

Yes, but like I said, that's not how most people are spending their money. A quick search gave me this number: "U.S. credit card defaults reached a record high of $46 billion from January through September 2024, the highest level in 14 years."

Robosats? Bisq?

Maybe for you it's necessary to put that discount, but I'd pay full price. Where I see this as beneficial is for the MERCHANT. They can give discounts for paying in bitcoin because it is less costly to them in fees and inefficient and dishonest transaction disputes. Try thinking about the other perspective. You'll get better results.

bitcoin can't fix people currently living beyond their means. it can help in the long run. but this reaffirms my point then that it sounds like the person shouldn't be making this purchase in the first place.

Yeah, I know. It makes no sense, but in theory you legally have to report it in the US. It's funny that some people get charged for "illegal money transmission", but they won't let you legally use it as money.

Just don't pay the tax lol! Find a loophole or just forget you did. They can't tax you on stuff you genuinely don't know you ever paid 😂

it's all bullshit, right?

Yep. So don't pay.

Agreed 100%. But I think the OP was about driving adoption. People would need a reason to use their btc.

Pay the merchant instead haha

No I have enough Bitcoin to pay for everything and I always do via various ways but I can't replace so a discount sounds good to me if it's beneficial for both parties

I have spent btc twice. I didn't report it. But legally the obligation exists. I mean, we're supposed to report zaps too, haha.

it doesn't sound like you need to spend and replace then, is that right? you just want to spend. you said you have no fiat and you have enough bitcoin. so, why are you arguing with me again?

we don't have to report zaps now. orange man said no tax on tips.

It’s nuts. We are doing some long overdue renovations (which we saved up for). Totally floored that that contractor would accept credit card payments. We got enough points to fly our son home for Christmas.

Yeah I know it's often an obligation to our self preservation to appease the slavers, but it is also an obligation to deny them when the time comes that we can safely and effectively do so. Make the calculated decision to evade taxes or avoid taxes, based on the risk.

You can finance a hot dog at Costco.

You pay for that "free" money with higher prices though, just sayin' ... it's more like the credit market reshapes spending and time value according to the offering you picked.

If you uses more obscured methods like lightning and only spend a normal amount it's not quite tax evasion in my opinion. It's as much tax evasion as selling something on Craigslist and not claiming it.

What a world we live in…

Oh, I don't need convincing, haha. I agree.

You can pay in a mixture of bitcoin and credit cards and cash in the U.S., especially with access to robosats and to exchanges like River or Strike that offer bill pay and direct deposit into a mix of bitcoin and dollars and such. I pay for most things in dollars but it is possible to do a little replace and spend mixed with it if you have a mindset to play around and stay disciplined. In the meantime, gotta find more income too. It's really hard out here. I hear you. I'm struggling too.

Awesome! The tax revolt is incubating...

Then I guess that classifies it as tax avoidance, "legal" refusal to pay tax.

I'm not arguing really 🫂 but you said you don't need a discount to spend Bitcoin. I don't NEED it either because I HAVE to spend Bitcoin but a lot of people don't so they either go the easy route or the cheaper one. I think your point is counter-productive, that's all. Nothing but love BTW.

Bitcoin has been a stablecoin all year so the gains/losses are a negligible

Yeah I considered that too, just talking in general really

Be the change you want to see 🤝

To the merchant, it’s just another payment rail. ‘Do you want to pay with MC, Visa or BTC?’ For the merchant, it’s cash into their account.

A better payment rail. But that's besides the point. Go talk to a merchant that hasn't enabled it yet. They don't know they just get USD. They think they're opting into dealing with "crypto" once explained they're all in.

Yup. We had interesting experiences in Vietnam where everything is in cash, but the occasional merchant would accept Visa. In all cases, the merchant would apologetically inform us that they would have to add a 3% processing fee to our bill..

Exactly. Better yet: just increase the exchange rate for the customer to effectuate a discount. As a bitcoiner who probably has a good idea that the exchange rate has been hovering around 104K, imagine a coffee shop offering you 107K to spend your sats instead of dollars. You check your phone to confirm: hell ya, that's a good rate right now. If that's me, I'm choosing to spend sats; and more importantly, I'm making that my new go-to coffee shop.

Credit cards are CBDC's with rewards points. Debit cards are CBDC's without the credit score . I use them when I need to, but try to avoid them as much as I can. It's crazy to me that so many businesses won't even take cash paper money anymore.

👏

Exactly. Until the discount is such that you are motivated to spend the good money. This is exactly how the banking system worked until central banks came into the picture. You’d spend the sketchy notes as fast as possible, until the discount rate was back at zero. It self-regulated quite well.

which is also why, although we should be doing what we can to build up the use of bitcoin/ln for payment, ultimately more important that we hodl it so we don't lose the value of our savings. so, anyone telling you you have to spend it, is just fuckin retarded. mind your own fucking business, is my response to all the moralizing and prescription of influencoors whose ulterior motives are obviously not aligned with their claims.