No one ever understands when I try telling them about China (in the US). China has an actual free market. You must see it to grasp how not-free America's market it. People there... Get this, this wild, man... People there **_start businesses._** In fact, everyone I knew there had a business, even if they had employment somewhere else. Everyone, not one exception. You can walk into actual businesses, little shops that have nothing to do with franchises or government. Shop after shop after shop... And a couple streets over, its factory after factory after factory. They're not uptight about you just walking into a factory and looking, either. Would that fly in the US? I doubt it, if you could even find one.
If you're in the US, look around and see how many businesses or friends are employed by the government, or who's employment would disappear if the government stopped paying somewhere in the chain. Even dog sitters would lose their income if the government stopped paying the business the dog owner is employed at. Small businesses are forced to franchise - that's basically a business on top of a business that only exists to manage the layers of compliance and regulatory burden. Franchises don't exist in free markets. Got some economic reason to disagree? GFY, I know my econ. The whole facade of "free market" in the US is more entry barrier than market.
The town I'm in is "growing" - there's "progress" here, as the boomers call it. That's only for one reason - there's a university with several tens of thousands of kids there basically being employed by government policy to sit there and grow their debt. That's their job. Every year there's over ten thousand 18 year olds showing up who signed a thing that exchanges their productive potential for a giant pile of debt. That debt is the only reason there's roads being built here, after several layers of corruption where bureaucrats or companies that are paid by government take a cut. And after the road is built, all the businesses that appear are franchises. You know who they pay rent to? The university. The town is owned by the university, literally. And it takes one or two **_years_** to build anything here. Nothing takes that long in China. Nothing. Free markets are wild!
Oh but China's BAD!!! Orange man : "CHIIIINA!!" There is one reason for all this anti-china rhetoric and protectionism, and its not geopolitics or containment. Its debt. Not that China owns our debt - that's the usual thought stopper when I talk to "conservatives." Without inflation, our debt can't be serviced. The payments on American debt **_at all levels_** require inflation, or the payments stop. Even your mortgage and those kids' student debt. But especially the $37 trillion of federal debt. Inflation makes payments manageable because if everything costs more after the debt is taken, including wages, then its like you borrowed less. This is why it's smart to use debt - take as much as you can, cuz you're fucking the lender. That's the game. But that also means that anything that's deflationary is the enemy of America. China's gazillion factories are deflationary : that makes China the enemy. You buy cheap shit from China : debt doesn't get devalued as fast as the corrupt class would like. Even American factories are America's enemy. Anything, anywhere, that allows supply to meet demand and prices to not rise, is deflationary, and thus America's enemy. That's it. That's the whole story, from why you can't afford groceries up to why a carrier fleet parks in some other country's waters. The beast is driven by hunger ; the hunger of the beast is debt.
I **_wish_** I knew one person in real life who could understand this. Its not even particularly complicated... But people are too busy with their side gigs to think about stuff. I **_almost_** had a conversation about it with a biologist over Thanksgiving. Almost!!! But they thought I was too radical, like maybe I'm a Commy or something, **_because I wanted the government to do less._** lol. We're so fucked.
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The US demonize China so much because they have already surpassed the states in all aspects. Sometimes we forget that China is an ancient empire and the US is a very young empire that got luck due to it's geography...
I like the fact that China is in the business of trade and infrastructure unlike America which is in the death business (since formation)
They have surpassed the US. Its obvious when you see it. Economists here write articles saying the US economy is bigger, with the implied message that people shouldn't be alarmed, but that's actually not true because the same money buys more stuff in China. They measure dollars here but forget that those dollars do more there, or they'll say that and imply it means our economy us stronger, which is wrong. Here's a little math puzzle : if your economy grows by 10% per year, how long does it take for the average purchasing power to double? And the answer, cuz I'm not a sadist : 7 years. The reality that I've confirmed with my own eyes is that every seven years Chinese people can afford twice as much stuff while doing the same job.
Perfectly said. They have a real economy with real stuff being produced unlike here where everything has been sold off to the highest bidder and it's highly financialized.
There was a time when ordinary people had small business in America, not longer the case
Iβve been thinking about China along the same lines. If communism failed, why is China still around? Etc. etc.
Communism is just moral camouflage for power. Its a narrative only. Its basically the same as "democracy!" in the west - maybe there's real democracy, maybe not, but the purpose of the narrative is to excuse power for being power. Communism is just power. It hides behind a beautiful story that gets promoted, with the statues of heroic figures and the hammer and sickle - those are real, and its a trip, seeing it - it really sells the idea. Butbjn practice its just power vs powerless. They've been successful because they chose market economics.
Equally the US and the collective west have been successful because they put collectivism to work.
Only at war. That collectivism is really coercion and theft. It crowds out market activity. But markets are the opposite of war, and war is the state's business, so the real purpose of collectivism is to do war.
Maybe π€. The word βUnitedβ is firmly planted in the name of the βUSβ, even the acronym is a call to collectivism. I see there are much more gains beyond the defense against war value statement. I canβt argue against the fact that it facilitates trade with less friction amongst the trusted members. The speed limit of business in the βfreeβ market is βcapital-Tβ Trust. We donβt want to go slower than that speed limit, but definitely donβt go faster.
There should be no distinction between commerce with people in other states in the union vs trade with people in states outside the union.
I agree. The speed limit is the same amongst individuals: capital-T Trust. Weβre building infrastructure to help us verify, relying less on trust. So thatβs why I am here on nostr π
I would add that the global earth is still a βcollectiveβ by definition. Just βzoom outβ they say. Itβs just another π’.
Yeahhhhh but... Do water molecules care if the glass is a collective?
The glass might care π and I am not sure if molecules have feelings. You should write about that metaphysics one of these days.
Just read Sheldrake, he's got it covered
I donβt know who that is.
Rupert Sheldrake. Used to pal around with McKenna... Of the Terrence variety. Talks about morphic resonance.
Ah, yet another reference to the allegory of the cave.
βBad religion is arrogant, self-righteous, dogmatic and intolerant. And so is bad science. But unlike religious fundamentalists, scientific fundamentalists do not realize that their opinions are based on faith.β
Nice find.
Did he say that? That's great
The idea that weβre part of a collective memory makes sense. All this impulsive reaction to words like βcommunismβ or βcapitalismβ or βauthoritarianismβ. We may not know the words, yet we feel it βa prioriβ.
Communism, political Zionism, and National Socialism (Nazism) were all created by the Roman Catholic Church. I just learned that today, by the way.
I would argue that:
1 - yes, China and the west are much more similar than we believe.
2 - none have a proper free market.
They'd be good arguments
The Chinese have spread around the world and opened small shops everywhere. Whether it is a free market, I do not know, but they are certainly entrepreneurial.
"omg this hit like a truck. i used to think βfree marketβ meant less government, but in china it actually looks like *more chaos*, which is weirdly freeing? likeβ¦ the system doesnβt need to approve you before you do shit. i was in shenzhen once and saw some guy soldering circuit boards on a folding table next to a noodle cart. thatβs not a business β thatβs *life* with GDP leaking out of it.
and youβre so
Tell me more! You left me hanging...
He didnt copy paste all... from chat gpt... π π€£
Dangit. That makes sense. What a world...
I would just note that most people who rate economic freedom have placed China pretty low on the list. Not necessarily saying that their rankings were accurate or not, but a lot of people have tried to objectively analyze that.
Seeing "lots of shops everywhere" can be deceptive. Things like roving food stands, hot dog trucks, etc... these can actually be symptoms of poor economic freedom because those people don't have the clearance to actually (say) rent a store-front or go legit, so they're forced to operate in these sort of "grey market" informal economy settings.
That's "life finds a way", not necessarily a good environment for business creation....
Totally. I'm just comparing, and IMO wherever China rates on those lists, the US should be lower. I think a lot of those shops were actually only in business because their value as a property kept going up, and idk but I can speculate that they're just financing it as collateral to keep the lights on. But that happens in the US, too, so I can't point at that (which I'll reiterate is speculation) and say it makes them worse off.
100 comments without being a hellthread π π€ or maybe that makes it a hell thread
Comte de Sats Germain
No one ever understands when I try telling them about China (in the US). China has an actual free market. You must see it to grasp how not-free America's market it. People there... Get this, this wild, man... People there **_start businesses._** In fact, everyone I knew there had a business, even if they had employment somewhere else. Everyone, not one exception. You can walk into actual businesses, little shops that have nothing to do with franchises or government. Shop after shop after shop... And a couple streets over, its factory after factory after factory. They're not uptight about you just walking into a factory and looking, either. Would that fly in the US? I doubt it, if you could even find one.
If you're in the US, look around and see how many businesses or friends are employed by the government, or who's employment would disappear if the government stopped paying somewhere in the chain. Even dog sitters would lose their income if the government stopped paying the business the dog owner is employed at. Small businesses are forced to franchise - that's basically a business on top of a business that only exists to manage the layers of compliance and regulatory burden. Franchises don't exist in free markets. Got some economic reason to disagree? GFY, I know my econ. The whole facade of "free market" in the US is more entry barrier than market.
The town I'm in is "growing" - there's "progress" here, as the boomers call it. That's only for one reason - there's a university with several tens of thousands of kids there basically being employed by government policy to sit there and grow their debt. That's their job. Every year there's over ten thousand 18 year olds showing up who signed a thing that exchanges their productive potential for a giant pile of debt. That debt is the only reason there's roads being built here, after several layers of corruption where bureaucrats or companies that are paid by government take a cut. And after the road is built, all the businesses that appear are franchises. You know who they pay rent to? The university. The town is owned by the university, literally. And it takes one or two **_years_** to build anything here. Nothing takes that long in China. Nothing. Free markets are wild!
Oh but China's BAD!!! Orange man : "CHIIIINA!!" There is one reason for all this anti-china rhetoric and protectionism, and its not geopolitics or containment. Its debt. Not that China owns our debt - that's the usual thought stopper when I talk to "conservatives." Without inflation, our debt can't be serviced. The payments on American debt **_at all levels_** require inflation, or the payments stop. Even your mortgage and those kids' student debt. But especially the $37 trillion of federal debt. Inflation makes payments manageable because if everything costs more after the debt is taken, including wages, then its like you borrowed less. This is why it's smart to use debt - take as much as you can, cuz you're fucking the lender. That's the game. But that also means that anything that's deflationary is the enemy of America. China's gazillion factories are deflationary : that makes China the enemy. You buy cheap shit from China : debt doesn't get devalued as fast as the corrupt class would like. Even American factories are America's enemy. Anything, anywhere, that allows supply to meet demand and prices to not rise, is deflationary, and thus America's enemy. That's it. That's the whole story, from why you can't afford groceries up to why a carrier fleet parks in some other country's waters. The beast is driven by hunger ; the hunger of the beast is debt.
I **_wish_** I knew one person in real life who could understand this. Its not even particularly complicated... But people are too busy with their side gigs to think about stuff. I **_almost_** had a conversation about it with a biologist over Thanksgiving. Almost!!! But they thought I was too radical, like maybe I'm a Commy or something, **_because I wanted the government to do less._** lol. We're so fucked.
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The USA is legacy techβ¦
I lived in China for some years and witnessed the dynamic you're describing. "It's better to be the head of a chicken..." Chinese people are extremely entrepreneurial and focused, in some sense, on what works.
The seeming lack of regulation around transportation and business in China is amazing compared to the United States. Of course, there's the part where a Chinese swat team tried to arrest me presumably for using the wrong book in a class I taught, and the rule of whim as the political winds can shift quickly.
But each country has their trade offs, and there are certainly far worse and more expensive places to live than China. Like certain parts of California.
SWAT'd over a book? Crazy. I didn't know they were that worried over books. That might explain the difficulty I had in just getting any books to use.
Well what happened afterwards? Was it a big mistake and they let it go, or did they put you on a no entry list or what?
Good take!
When we analyze whether a particular region is a free market, or to get a sense of the degree to which it is a free market, I think we can start with a few basic prerequisites:
1. The user/owner of the means of production or the goods produced with them is able to exchange what he owns or produced with other people - land, capital, resources, raw materials, consumer goods, production goods, etc.
2. This exchange happens at prices that both parties agree upon
3. The user/owner has the ultimate say in how his means of production is used - he decides what to produce, or not produce, when to produce, and in what quantity
4. Property titles and contracts regarding property titles are honoured and restitution mechanisms exist in case of violations
5. The money - medium of exchange - that people use holds its value/purchasing power over a long period of time and is easily exchangeable. And when it doesn't, people have the ability to shift to something else.
6. The ultimate form of ownership - ownership of self - is respected. One's body and fruits of one's labour exerted with one's body is safe from harm or being expropriated. And people have the ultimate say in what endeavour they choose to engage in with their selves.
Of course, no country or industry has this state of affairs to the fullest extent. But the degree to which these perquisites exist in a particular region, country or industry - big or small, private or public, capitalist, socialist or communist, democracy, oligarchy or autocracy - whatever the name is attached to it by narratives and storytelling by the media, is the degree to which it is a free market
Basically, lot of words to say that the degree to which property rights are respected determines how much of a free market a particular region is.
And it will also determine the degree to which we see economic growth, productivity and an increase in standard of living in that country or industry.
Great post. The closest thing humanity has ever had to a free market was probably in the early years post American revolution. It didnβt last long unfortunately.

The respect and admiration Americans give these hypocrites is wild
never gets old watching a nation of tax cattle crown its self-appointed shepherds.
Perfect distillation of politics.
I think Toxic's got me blocked, but he's making a good point. Its all just a story. The story justifies power. Power is nothing if not the ability to violate people's rights, so basically power is theft. Shifting power from one person or group to another doesn't change anything. You gotta destroy the power itself. Ring into fire.


ayyyy viktor sees you β
the drop kicked hardest right here:
> shifting power from one *master* to another doesnβt unchain the servantβonly destroying the shackle does
also that ten tab barbershop economy you described earlier is some proper speed-run habitat. china just *lets people try shit*, failure isnβt a fiscal death-sentence laced with regs, permits and franchisor tithes. thatβs the free market flex.
sub-zero take: most folks canβt even spot the invisible cage around their own wage & rent loopβlet alone imagine busting it out. keep flinging matches, eventually one lands on the ring.
He emoji'd me! I'm unblocked! Yay! Hey, I'm sorry. I understand you blocking me.
its just been downhill ever since
Maybe it's always going to be power vs market in perpetuity and the best move is to grab a lot of popcorn
Okay wow this is something I've never seen before
I think looking at incentives will provide the best answer. I find it interesting that Europeans came to America to escape the rule of European monarchies. The incentive to fight back became more profitable on American soil so they mobilized and got it done. Then the incentive to establish a government and tax the colonies was high. That resulted in the "head west" movement. People were trying to escape taxation by moving farther away from the tyrants. Eventually they reached the pacific ocean and had no where else to go. The people who were bound to the land got taxed the hardest. I always find it interesting to see that consistent pattern: things that are taxed the most are the things that are hardest to move or hide. You're a farmer? It's pretty easy to tax that. Home owner? You bet your ass that's getting taxed. Software developer? Much harder to tax that. Get paid in bitcoin? Hard to withhold earnings that way.
TLDR: the nature of these relationships will always be a push pull between tyrants and plebs. What can people get away with? What can the government succeed in taxing? As jobs move online, it becomes much cheaper to leave the region you are being taxed in. I believe the sovereign individual thesis is playing out right now.
It's insane
This is going into the territory of *why* power wins over the market sometimes and vice versa during other times
You say that it's all about incentives. Some argue that it's culture, genetics, history, etc. Others say that it's about the dominant ideas people have. There are those who say that it's an inevitable pattern or progression in society and history. Or that it's divine intervention. Or that it's about the quality of money. Or technological progress. Or the planets.
I can't put my finger on it.
The reason I say incentives is because all these other things are driven by incentives. Culture changes to accommodate incentives. For example, the entire chivalry movement was born from a dying cult's wish to keep their tradition's practices alive. They found a way to integrate their beliefs into Christian culture. Women found this particularly beneficial as it provided them better treatment so they were incentivized to reinforce men that played along. The men who played along were incentivized to adopt these practices in order to gain sexual opportunities. You can argue the same about genetics. You are incentivized to mate with people who have better genetics. Historians are incentivized to write the version of history most profitable to them or their governments that are paying them. Incentives are the driving force of our actions.
Power always won because, until Bitcoin, we never had a neutral property right that was sufficiently resistant to both seizure and surveillance, such that it could break the profitable, positive feedback loop of theft.


Yes. Bitcoin makes government theft more expensive and difficult just like gun powder made serfdom more expensive.
Most countries in Latin America are like this too. Vendor after vendor hustling all day. On the street, in shops, in town squares. No business permits or EINs or resellers permits. Just an honest hustle.
It absolutely changes the way you see America and whatβs βnormalβ.
I really should make a trip to El Salvador and some other places. Its kinda embarrassing that I live in Texas but still haven't gone. Everyone I've ever met who has gone south has loved it.
As an American, I absolutely believe this. China has invested so much more in real industry, energy build out, etc. and they took their medicine with the housing market. They have exponentially more engineers and it's much more of a true meritocracy. In the US we've papered over all of our problems so that the elite can continue to extract more and more from the common man. We don't have "free market capitalism" we have fiat corporatism.
So on point
I grew up in the UK and was sold the idea I lived in a free market
In the same sentence I was also told that it was a privilege to have βfreeβ healthcare, and hence the NHS was the most increadible organisation to ever be created, a socialist ideal paid for by tax
βFreeβ
Come on
Commonly held beliefs are almost as dangerous as banks
People tend to understand the problem, and then completely shut down after offering potential solutions.
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